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Philosophy/religion

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Original poster

Anyone up for a debate about Dawkins?

31 replies

hunkermunker · 03/10/2008 23:55

Am reading The God Delusion.

I'm a reluctant atheist - I am intrigued by the idea that there's a God, but my logical, cynical brain scoffs at it and tells me that, as Dawkins says (and I paraphrase), monotheists have rejected all other gods - what makes them so sure their god exists?

OP posts:

zippitippitoes · 03/10/2008 23:57

well my bf keeps trying to persuade me to read dawkins but i am too lazy

so i have to debate based on what he tells me first which makes things a bit biased

hatrick · 03/10/2008 23:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

ghosty · 03/10/2008 23:59

I haven't read it yet Hunker but it is at the top of my reading list.
I think I may go and buy it today and keep up with this thread ...
My cousin (a minister and a lecturer at a theological college) asks his new students if they have read this and he says most of them are scared that by reading it they will lose their faith ... I find that very interesting ...
PS - I am a 'reluctant atheist' too

NotAnOtter · 04/10/2008 00:01

sitting in the harvest festival today the mum next to me turned to me when the prayer was announced and said ' i cant believe intelligent people actually pray anymore'

she seemed surprised when i LOL

NotAnOtter · 04/10/2008 00:02

i would love to be a 'believer'

Niecie · 04/10/2008 00:02

Only read bits of The God Delusion - on my pile of books to read along with The Dawkins Delusion.

Not sure I am cut out to be an atheist - they seem to sure about it all when there is so much we don't know and there is nothing that convinces me that God doesn't exist.

Somebody called themselves a Christian agnostic a few weeks ago. I think that is me. I think there is a God but I don't have a faith in Him as such because I don't have any proof.

Original poster

hunkermunker · 04/10/2008 00:04

Oh, loads convinces me God doesn't exist.

I found the celestial teapot stuff particularly convincing.

In fact...

OP posts:

serin · 04/10/2008 00:05

Well, I am Christian and have certainly not rejected 'all' other 'Gods'.

I believe that there is one God, the maker of all that there is. I believe that people worship in their own way, according to the traditions they were brought up with, but ultimately we are all praying to the same God.

TheCelestialTeapot · 04/10/2008 00:07

Ah, that's better.

Who made God, Serin?

That worries me, you see.

ghosty · 04/10/2008 00:08

LOL NAO ... I have tried for many years to be a 'believer' ... I gave up about 18 months ago.
I am pretty sure there is a 'higher power' of some kind ... but not sure it is the God that we are supposed to think it is.
I said to my cousin recently that at the end of the day the Bible is still only a collection of interpretations of events and so how can I possibly 'believe' in that ...
It isn't faith that I have a problem with actually .... but it is 'religion' that isn't for me.
I get more out of watching a sunset than I could ever get out of sitting in church or reading the bible or praying ... believe me, I have tried ...

TheCelestialTeapot · 04/10/2008 00:11

Ghosty, I feel like that too.

I love some churches - the chill air, the echoey silence - but God isn't there for me. And I always want to be very irreverent during services - I always think of quips to each bit of the sermon or new words for prayers while I'm there.

Maybe I'd get along with Bill Hicks' "prankster God". I would, I think - "burying brontysaurus bones"

Niecie · 04/10/2008 00:11

That name is quite catchy!

I asked a Christian where God came from. He couldn't rule out he had a mum and dad. I suggested that there might be a family of Gods around all creating their own universes but he very seriously said that that was a step too far and there was only one God.

I know what you mean about not knowing where God came from though. Bothers me too.

My other question is which nobody Christian has been able to answer is why did he plant the Forbidden Fruit in the Garden of Eden in the first place. Surely it would have protected Paradise forever if He hadn't done that which strikes me as a mistake on his part and He doesn't make mistakes.

ghosty · 04/10/2008 00:25

I may link this debate to my lovely cousin - he loves a good debate ...

AbstractMouse · 04/10/2008 00:26

God I really don't like Dawkins, he is so absolutely certain in his beliefs, along with his fundamentalist religious friends.

My sis was obsessed with his books a while ago, was so annoying arguing with her.

I mean nobody actually knows the nature of this universe, the nature of reality. I am an atheist, I don't really believe in any kind of God figure. But I have an open mind. I agree that science has adequately described a lot of the laws of nature, well enough to bend them to our purpose.

When it comes to explaining how the universe came to be about, the whole science and philosophy behind the universes origin and nature then one persons (informed) guess is as good as the others. A lot of the theories bandied about in quantum physics are just as unlikely and implausible as there being a god figure who created the universe.

I love thinking about this stuff, just so mind blowing, I don't think humans will ever know the answer tbh.

serin · 04/10/2008 00:27

LOL I don't believe that God has parents!

I was always taught that one of the first laws of physics is that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, but God is not in my opinion "matter" in the physical sense but more of a spiritual being.

I believe that God exsisted before all else.

AbstractMouse · 04/10/2008 00:31

But that LAW of physics, is really just a theory created by human minds on what we can observe at the moment. Doesn't mean that it is actually true in the wider context of the bits of the universe we cannot currently see or conceive of.

Niecie · 04/10/2008 00:35

It is interesting Abstractmouse as I think of somebody who has an open mind as being an agnostic - somebody who does not believe because there is no proof.

That is another reason why I have problems with atheists like Dawkins - their minds aren't open any more. They don't think there is anything to find out.

But that is really muddying the waters with definitions of what we call ourselves - it doesn't really help in whether or not there is a God.

AbstractMouse · 04/10/2008 00:37

You are right niecie I should probably call myself an agnostic lol

VeniVidiVickiQV · 04/10/2008 00:41

There's nothing to debate, surely

AbstractMouse · 04/10/2008 00:43

Why vvvqv? it's interesting at least?

Niecie · 04/10/2008 00:48

Lol you are half way to being 'converted' now Abstractmouse!

Seriously, I am uncomfortable with atheism as it is only convinced by what is scientifically known which leaves an awful lot of unanswered questions. That kind of feels to me like a very closed off way of living, only to think in such concrete terms.

Humans are more complex than that and can believe things in that aren't tangible and measurable. My often quote example is love. Studying brain physiology can tell us what happens in the brain but it doesn't get to the essence of what love is and yet we all 'believe' in it. I don't see as the belief in God is much different.

serin · 04/10/2008 00:48

Re; forbidden fruit, my own thoughts are that God made us and gave us free will, to live our lives as we see fit and to be judged at the end.

He didn't need to protect paradise, he is God and could destroy and recreate the Earth in an instant if he wanted to.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 04/10/2008 00:56

Sorry AM, the wink was denoting that I wasnt taking things entirely seriously

AbstractMouse · 04/10/2008 01:04

Ah (no soh emoticon)

UnquietDad · 07/10/2008 09:14

Dawkins has a very precise definition of "fundamentalist" - it's someone who, when presented with the evidence, will attempt to get the facts to fit their existing beliefs rather than adapting their existing beliefs in the face of the evidence.

It's the exact opposite of what a scientist does.

He's said that if someone could present him with incontrovertible proof that God existed, he'd adapt his views.

In that sense he is not the "fundamentalist atheist" that some would paint him as.

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