We're always being told we should respect other people's beliefs, but....

[Hakluyt]

.....what exactly does "respect" mean in this context? I am an atheist, and I am always happy to be challenged on my lack of belief, and am frequently told that I must have no moral compass and that I have to put up and shut up when Christianity imposes itself on me. I have also been told that I must have no sense of wonder- and, on on particularly memorable occasion, that I couldn't possibly have any charitable impulses!

But if I say anything even remotely "challenging" about faith or people of faith,bi am accused of disrespect. So, what exactly does respecting other people's beliefs mean?

This exact topic was discussed on a thread recently (in the last few months?) it went on for pages and I think Hakluyt you were a major contributor? Maybe just do a search and read your own points again if you need reminding....

Are you just wanting a "do-over" because it wasn't in philosophy/religion/spirituality?

I didn't get a satisfactory answer. And there are many new posters. But feel free not to contribute!

I think you mean you didn't get the answer you want.

No. I don't know what answer I want. I just didn't get an answer. It just kept coming back to "respect".

Simple. Because the people who said that to you were arseholes.

We're not all the same.

Well if makes you happier don't respect others. Don't expect to make many loving friends that way though...

For me it's keep your gob shut unless asked your opinion and then if you are, express it without sneering about other people's beliefs.

I find that makes for the easiest life.

There are some subjects I simply refuse to discuss. Religion is one of them.

Nobody in rl knows my religious view because I refuse to discuss it.

I say that my views are private and I do not wish to debate them.

That ends each and every conversation ever tried on the subject.

I don't find that any religion has any sort of negative or restrictive impact on my life. I'm trying to think of something and I can't. But if there was something, then I'd tackle that as a single issue and not as Religion, iyswim.

I also think that just because someone wants or tries to debate something, that's no reason that you have to get into it. I'm not willing to have this conversation/ I'm not interested in debating this is a valid response.

But for those people who are just plain rude? - telling you you have no moral compass? I'm afraid they need to be asked what their faith has to say on the subject of judging others.

People aren't perfect and let us down continually, we also can be idiotic and uncaring at times. I think it's called the human condition. Luckily there are many out there who have a real talent for friendship - and I tend to gravitate toward them.

Hakluyt, I have the same experience and in recent years I've developed a zero-tolerance policy for that.

It's important to challenge the idea that only religion (usually just that poster's religion) is right and everyone else is wrong.

The notion of automatic respect for someone's beliefs is quite separate from treating that person decently even though there's always a few posters trying to conflate the two. This is sometimes done deliberately.

People who say "you must respect beliefs" mean "you must agree with MY beliefs". When asked "what about this guy who believes it's right to kill non-believers?" they will say "oh well not THAT belief obviously". So clearly they haven't thought it through. We can find endless examples of beliefs that no sane or decent person would respect.

There is rarely an option to just leave people to their beliefs because they tend to impose them on others. I'd personally like to enshrine in law the right for an individual to believe absolutely anything. From "god made the daisies" to "killing people is fun". I hate the idea of 'thought crime'.

But once that person tries to have their beliefs taught in schools, included in government (like the automatic right of bishops to sit in the Lords) or to provide them with an exemption to laws, then we have to stand up and say no.

When they tell people in front of us that lies are true we have a duty to correct that misinformation for the sake of the people they are misleading and the society we all have to live in.

As for the way we speak of their religion this would be funny if not so sad. If you say that believing in Jesus is like believing in Thor or Fairies people say "oh what a nasty thing to say! How dare you suggest I'm so stupid". But this reveals how they feel about people who do believe in Thor or Fairies. They have no respect for those beliefs or they wouldn't take it as an insult.

Great post back. I agree with you.

Hak, you had a thread on this a little while ago. Maybe have a re-read and continue that one so that no one wastes their time repeating their posts.

Totally agree with back - great post

As I said earlier Dione- I was none the wiser after that thread. I am looking for specific things that people consider disrespectful and ways to avoid them. I still don't understand. Feel free not to contribute.

For example, I can't think of a way of talking about a faith that regards menstruating women as unclean which would not appear disrespectful. So how can I make a comment in a debate about that particular faith which expresses my outrage at such faith based misogyny without being "disrespectful"?

I thunk calling their beliefs "Bollocks" is disrespectful. However you just suggested that people "forget" that you said that. Maybe starting by not calling people's beliefs "bollocks" would be good.

HTH

I find that people don't respect atheism or tiptoe around it the way they do with other faiths. So for example, I've had people tell me there would be no point in me going to my own mothers (Christian) funeral as I don't believe in god.

I started to explain that I believed funerals were for the living and I would want to support the other members of my family and ER, IT'S MY MOTHER'S FUNERAL so perhaps I'd have a right to attend. But then I realised that they had a little sneer on their face like they'd 'got me' and I remembered why I walked away from religion in the first place before becoming a fully committed atheist.

Yes I know you get arseholes with all beliefs but atheists just don't get taken seriously. Why don't my kids get taught at school that some people believe that god does not exist? All the religions of the world but no atheist alternative.

I don't think we need to respect other people's beliefs. I think our default position should however be respect for other people. Disagreeing strongly is fine. A robust argument is good. Belittling is not. That is disrespectful. No empirical evidence for a god, fine. "Imaginary friend", not so much.

Maybe it is the person you should respect. Saying things like believing in Jesus is like believing in Thor or Fairies to a practicing Christian is very rude and desrespectful of the person, as is telling an atheist that they have no moral compass.

If you are genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, ask them about it, don't just ask them so that you can shot them down. Too many of these types of discussions are adversarial where, instead of listening to the other person to learn something, we are just listening to find out where we can trip them up.

I think a lot depends on personal experience, I've found as a Christian I've seen a lot of people mocking people with a faith as having an imaginary friend and assuming that people with a faith must be bigoted and intolerant of others. I know that not every atheist thinks or says that but it's the message that comes through.

I think we all need to think about how the things we say may appear to others with a different view to others - I think that is the key to respect.

Ah now, I don't find that Thor thing disrespectful really. I'm not sure it is a particularly good analogy, but that's where the robust argument thing comes in (if I am in the mood). It doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing to say though.

However, arguing about belief itself with a committed believer who is clearly not going to change their mind and will be upset by the argument doesn't seem a very nice or productive thing to do. Arguing about specific issues, misogyny I think was the example below, might be a bit different perhaps?

I am a non believer.

I find it very easy to respect the faith of others. Just as I find it perfectly easy to respect their likes and dislikes over food or music or whatever.

I am also interested in my freinds' belief systems.

That said, I will not respect certain aspects of their religion which I consider inherently wrong and they in turn respect my feelings on that.

Did I say I thought people had forgotten? I can't actually remember calling anyone's beliefs bollocks, but I'm sure I did if you say so. But some beliefs are bollocks. Believing that menstruating women are unclean is bollocks. Men insisting that women are completely covered is bollocks. Cutting bits off newborn babies because god says so is bollocks. Believing that water has memory is bollocks. Believing that people are reincarnated as slugs is bollocks.

I'll hunt out my past thread and look for the "bollocks" moment.

Why not just read the whole thing. Maybe if you look at it with new eyes, you may become a little wiser than you were before. There are some very good tips on it.

"Saying things like believing in Jesus is like believing in Thor or Fairies to a practicing Christian"

Now why is that disrespectful? Surely it is like believing in Thor or fairies? It's a belief in something for which there is absolutely no evidence and which depends exclusively on faith.

Also, think of how you treat and speak to people IRL. You say that you are polite, maybe that's all that is needed.