We're always being told we should respect other people's beliefs, but....

[Hakluyt]

.....what exactly does "respect" mean in this context? I am an atheist, and I am always happy to be challenged on my lack of belief, and am frequently told that I must have no moral compass and that I have to put up and shut up when Christianity imposes itself on me. I have also been told that I must have no sense of wonder- and, on on particularly memorable occasion, that I couldn't possibly have any charitable impulses!

But if I say anything even remotely "challenging" about faith or people of faith,bi am accused of disrespect. So, what exactly does respecting other people's beliefs mean?

Christians follow Christ. I don't know many people who deny Christ existed as there is much evidence to suggest he did.It is not just the Bible. He is mentioned elsewhere by Jewish writers of his time. So once you accept that Jesus lived on this earth and you start to study his life and study what he claimed and taught, you either think 'oh, that is quite wise but he was not God,just a wise person' or you are challenged to believe he was more than that. He certainly claimed to be God,claimed to forgive sins and claimed that the only way to God was through him. This is what C.S Lewis (who incidentally was a vehement atheist for much of his life) had to say about the matter.

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

I personally do not think I lack evidence for what I believe and also most Christians would also tell you that their belief/faith/conversion also made a tangible difference to their life which to them is also evidence(but hard to prove) of a supernatural event taking place.

One aspect of fairies from Wiki (no less!):

"Christian mythology
A belief held that they were a class of "demoted" angels.[25] One popular story held that when the angels revolted, God ordered the gates shut; those still in heaven remained angels, those in hell became demons, and those caught in between became fairies.[26] Others held that they had been thrown out of heaven, not being good enough, but they were not evil enough for hell.[27] This may explain the tradition that they had to pay a "teind" or tithe to Hell: as fallen angels, though not quite devils, they could be seen as subject of the Devil.[28] For a similar concept in Persian mythology, see Peri.
Another, related belief was the fairies were demons entirely.[29] This belief became much more popular with the growth of Puritanism.[30] The hobgoblin, once a friendly household spirit, became a wicked goblin.[31] Dealing with fairies was in some cases considered a form of witchcraft and punished as such in this era.[32] Disassociating himself from such evils may be why Oberon, in A Midsummer Night's Dream, carefully observed that neither he nor his court feared the church bells.[33]
The belief in their angelic nature was less common than that they were the dead, but still found popularity, especially in Theosophist circles.[34][35] Informants who described their nature sometimes held aspects of both the third and the fourth view, or observed that the matter was disputed"

Interesting, really interesting stuff.

I don't understand why it is not considered, what, reasonable, for someone to believe in fairies. There is a long long tradition of it in this part of the world for a very very long time.

Anyway sidetrack.

Oh and of course many strands of many religious are vehemently sexist, misogynist, I can't understand how anyone could look around the world and say that they aren't. Including Christianity.

"I don't know many people who deny Christ existed as there is much evidence to suggest he did"

Actually, there isn't much evidence to suggest he existed.

I find it odd that someone is asking why being mocked is upsetting. Being mocked is pretty unpleasant in most situations surely? The question surely is why some people would see equating belief on a Christian God to belief in Thor/fairies as mockery. As I have already said, I don't. I think "imaginary friend" is mocking, as it is infantilising, and my faith is deeply questioned (and somewhat shaky at the moment, but that is by the by) and not a childish acceptance of what I was brought up with. I find the idea that I must not have not examined my faith in the light of my scientific knowledge and understanding particularly irritating. But I know that I have issues around this!

Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse.

Ah the old lord, liar or lunatic apology. There's one you forgot though which was pointed out a while back, what about legend. I assume you reckon that the gods of the ancient Greeks were legends possibly based on real people built up over many years and embellished. The gospels were written about 100 years after Jesus was supposed to be alive and not by the disciples they were named after.

^"The Gospel of Mark is the most important of the synoptic gospels because it is the primary source for Matthew and Luke. Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. An additional 18% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew but not in Luke, and an further 3% of Mark is in Luke but not in Matthew. This means that 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke.

Matthew contains 606 of Mark’s 661 verses. Luke contains 320 of Mark’s 661 verses. Of the 55 verses of Mark which Matthew does not reproduce, Luke reproduces 31; therefore there are only 24 verses in all of Mark not reproduced somewhere in Matthew or Luke".^

Paul's writings were written before the gospels. This is stuff I didn't know until after I lost my faith. People just assume that the gospels were actually written by the disciples at the time or soon after the event. And then there's all the gospels that didn't make it into the final cut, and some of them were insane!

What's wrong with believing in Thor?
What's wrong with believing in fairies?

Don't understand.

I'm asking about having beliefs mocked, not the person being mocked. I'd still like to hear some mockery of the atheist posiiton. Anyone?

Misunderstood your post FallenMadonna.

Sorry, yes, I agree with that point. Why would it be mockery to compare to a belief in less "popular" beliefs. It wouldn't is of course the answer.

Is that to me? About Thor? Did you read my post? I have no beef with Thor as a stick with which to beat a Christian. Only as a deity. And my belief, as I am happy to admit, is irrational.

As I think mockery is rather unpleasant headinhands, you will have to wait for someone else...

I'm asking because I'd like to examine the thought process behind being offended by someone not believing/thinking what you do. I'd like someone to mock my atheist position and see what it feels like.

No Fallen, I know you won't actually mean it, it'll be an exercise. I'll just pretend you mean it and see how I feel. It's okay, you'd be helping me.

Well, as I have said, I am not in the least bit offended by people not believing what I believe. That's not mockery, of course. So I can say "I believe in God and therefore I think you are wrong not to", and that is not mockery, and you are not offended, because it is not offensive.

Some People with a religious faith are apparently offended if their belief is equated to one that they consider outdated and obsolete. I am not one of them, and am not offended by that either.

I am offended when people question my intelligence, my scientific understanding, or my maturity in relation to my faith. I am arrogant enough to think that I am passably intelligent and scientifically literate. I understand that many people find it hard to accept those things in relation to religious faith, but I am am offended when they suggest that people with faith cannot have those attributes. Apart from that, anything goes, as far as I'm concerned.

Like others have said, am amazed that some people see no difference between challenge/disagreement and mockery. That must make it hard for them in their family and friendship relationships, and in the workplace!
When you challenge/disagree, you speak in a polite and kind (if sometimes empassioned) tone, you make a point of clearly listening to the other person's view, you respond in a way that shows you have listened... Etc etc
When mocking, you speak in an unkind/sneering tone, you don't listen properly, you make jokes at the other person's expense, you perhaps laugh at what they say...
In any quest to be respectful to others, I would advise enacting the former behaviours, and not the latter.
As for mocking an atheistic position - why would I be so rude? But if you really want to be mocked for your views, presumably you could easily find some of the people with faith who are always trying to convert you, criticise you etc, and they would probably oblige.
And the accuracy of the sky fairy analogy - am struggling with how an analogy can be either accurate or inaccurate as such, when it's so dependant on interpretation. The God I believe in (which I would explain to anyone if I had the time, and if they questioned me and didn't mock me) has as much in common with a fairy who lives in the sky as questioning has with mockery.
No harm to those who believe in fairies, though. And if their belief gives them comfort and leads them to be even slightly better people, then it's surely a net good thing.

This thread is very interesting. I have always wondered why people who profess not to believe in God spend so long arguing about it.

As far as I can tell, Christians (in general) in this country seem pretty liberal, and demand no more status than other social groups. (There are faith schools of all religions. There are certain schools you can't attend unless you are very wealthy or know the right people, but I never see anyone demanding we shut down the elitist private schools, the men's clubs and round table societies or any other society, club or group.)

I've never met a Christian who thinks they are better than anyone else. I would go so far as to say that if there are people who act like this, they are simply "church goers" and not Christians .

As for mocking atheists, as requested... How can you mock a lack of something? What's to mock?!

"As far as I can tell, Christians (in general) in this country seem pretty liberal, and demand no more status than other social groups. (There are faith schools of all religions."
If that were true then there wouldn't be a discussion. But Christians do expect a privileged status in society. They expect not to be bound by the same equality laws as non Christians. There are unelected Christian a Bishops in the House of Lords who have a right of veto over all bills passed. There is chrisitwninput into all scientific and social policy in this country. There are state schools where Christians have priority in admissions procedure.....And no, there are not state schools of all religions.

As an atheist I'm saying 'I don't know' and can't make a decision because I don't have the information/proof I would require to believe

Headinhands, my comment about people who are convinced about their superior intelligence was not a dig at atheists (I myself come from a long line of atheists) it was referring to people who only talk to other people to prove them wrong, not to listen to what they have to say.

Wow, Hak, now i kind of feel important. Clearly i should be making all people bow before me. How exciting, i could use some extra cash.

There are a lot of unelected people in the house of lords. In fact, i thought they all were? Whether by "birth right" or giving lots of money to a political party. I say again... Christians aren't the only ones with influence.

There are faith schools of all major religions. Certainly where i live. I imagine if you'd like a faith school for pastafarianism you'll have to apply to the LA for a free school. Granted there are more church schools, but i imagine its because they want to force atheists in to substandard schools so they can oppress them they are mostly old and date back to when it was a dominant force in the country.

As for scientific and social policy... Money speaks louder than faith. Have a word with the CEOs of big pharma first, if you'd like policy change.

I won't deny that some "Christians" have climbed pretty high. But i feel you are ignoring all the huge fish so you can kick the smaller one. Getting rid of churches isn't going to make this country a better place.

Honeysuckle

Christians are the only group, of any kind, who get to to sit in the HOL by right. There are a number of seats reserved for Christians bishops simply because they are Christian bishops.

No other religion or organisation gets this privilege.

It is the law that every school child in this country participates in a daily act of Christian worship. The law.

And the overwhelming majority of faith schools are Christian. Not that it would matter if you could find a Pastafarian faith school because your child would still, by law, have to engage in a daily (one way) conversation with the Christian god. By law.

Trying to deny Christian privilege in this country is pointless and I am not sure why you would try.

Nobody, but nobody is suggesting getting rid of churches. But it would be a politeness, if nothing else, if Christianity could finally accept that is has precisely nothing to offer a growing number of people in this country and remove itself from our day to day lives.

Honeysuckle- a positive army of straw men in your post!

Yes of course other special interest groups have undue influence- but this thread is about faith.

Yes of course there are other unelected people in the Hous of a lords, but I was talking about he 25 who are there because they are Christians.

Yes of course any faith group could apply to set up a free school- but Christian faith schools already exist in significant numbers in yeah a state system. And all state schools have to offer an act of collective worship that is broadly Christian in nature, whether they ar faith schools or not.

And faith schools of all major religions? State funded ones? Are you sure? Could you say a bit more about that? Because if that's true, then that makes the situation even worse- even more schools that can select on the basis of faith and are therefore not available to everyone in the catchment.

And nobody has come even close to suggesting shutting down churches- where did you get that from?

I would respect religion if it minded it's own business. But it doesn't. The filthy fingers of religion pervades the fabric of our society having a say in how we raise our children and how we conduct our sexual and reproductive behaviour.

For that reason I have no respect for religion or adherants.

Well said honeysuckle. Personally I would like to see the back of the House of Lords full stop. IMO an unelected house is a travesty against democracy. However until that happens why shouldn't the church be represented by the small number of seats they hold when the majority who hold seats are representatives by virtue of money, business, backscratching and birth?? They are very much in the minority there so are hardly going to be dictating the future of the country in every issue put before them!!! I find the statement that Christians expect a privileged place in society a ludicrous one tbh. I am sure some do as do members of various other groups in society but lumping any group together be it saying that all benefit recipients are feckless scroungers or all public school pupils believe they are born to rule is meaningless. As a Christian I believe all members of society should have a privileged place in society, that all members of society should have an equal and high level of education and the reason that I believe that is because I believe in the commandments to love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself. This is the logical conclusion of this belief to me. I know there are plenty of Christians who don't think the same as me but I can honestly say that I have never met a Christian that fits the stereotype being portrayed on this thread and tbh if that was what the majority of Christians were like then I would have real issues with them as well! Having said that I know a lot of atheists as well and I have never met an atheist with quite such stringent views as many on this thread. Personally, I don't mind the sky fairy analogies, everyone is entitled to their own opinion although I think it's a lazy argument. What does annoy me is the assumption that I believe in what I do due to indoctrination from childhood, a lack of intelligence and /or a reluctance to question my beliefs. My faith is something I have reached from a starting point of reading and exploring the concept of the historical Jesus. It is a continual process of questioning and developing and is about as far removed from my childhood of singing "we plough the fields and scatter" in school assembly as could be!

"I find the statement that Christians expect a privileged place in society a ludicrous one tbh."

What about Christians expecting to have a wider choice of school? What about compulsory Christian worship in all state schools? What about those Christians who don't want to do things that equality laws expect them to do because they are Christians? Would you be happy to give up all those things?

Totally Hak! I believe in separation of state and church. But until I am no longer represented by people who have that right to do so purely by birth or money etc then I am quite happy to have a small christian voice including in the mix. And if there are ever any serious proposals made to abolish the unelected house then I will be marching for that to happen, bishops and all!