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Original poster

KC registered and papers, how important for new pup? Help needed please.

46 replies

puppup · 01/08/2009 11:12

We have been looking at King Charles Spaniel puppies in our local area,

the price seems to be from £300, £350, £400 and upto £500.

There was a chap with an advert up for £280 pups, as follows

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel puppies. Dogs & Bitches. Various colours. Mum can be seen. Fully vet checked. reared in family home with children and other pets. Nationwide delivery at extra cost if distance is a prob . . .

So DH calls him, they are both full KCS (the parents I mean) the pups are full KCS.

The pups have no papers,
I was a bit concerned about this until I rang and talked to a breeder who was selling £500 pups, she said her pups don't have papers as they are sold as pets.

So is this something to worry about or not?

I mean I'm not bothered about showing or breeding, she will jst be a family pet.

If I got a mongrel from a rescue centre it wouldn't matter? so does it matter here?

Thanks.

OP posts:

bella21 · 01/08/2009 11:19

It's completely untrue that pups sold as pets don't have papers.

Given that CKCS are widely puppy farmed and full of health problems, I would steer well clear of any without papers.

If you have your heart set on a CKCS do lots of research, contact the breed society and ask lots of questions of anyone you are thinking of buying from.

And I believe nationwide delivery is a scam whereby you pay a deposit and the pup never arrives. Any reputable breeder will put you through a grilling to find out if you are a suitable owner - they would never deliver.

Original poster

puppup · 01/08/2009 11:29

No, not a scam, just a nice bloke who lives down the road who is bringing 2 pups to us to view and maybe keep because we have no transport at the moment.

OP posts:

bella21 · 01/08/2009 11:30

More info here:

here

Original poster

puppup · 01/08/2009 11:33

Thanks, I can't read that, I don't know how to poen it!

I'll ask my husband later.

OP posts:

crokky · 01/08/2009 11:39

My mum has a King Charles and she wanted her for a pet. She has some markings missing and she was the runt of the litter. The breeder had sat up with her every night for 2 weeks after she was born because she was so small and scrawny. Anyway, she's now 12 years old but point is, she still had papers even though there was no chance of ever showing or breeding (too small for a pregnancy).

Original poster

puppup · 01/08/2009 11:48

sO i should be looking for papers even though I have no need for them?

OP posts:

Original poster

puppup · 01/08/2009 11:48

Opps, that sounded huffy! Was not meant to be!!

OP posts:

bella21 · 01/08/2009 11:51

This might be easier to read:

here

You need more than papers - you need to see the pups with their mother (and father if possible), you need to know all the possible health screening for that breed has been carried out and exactly what the results were, you need to know how the pups have been raised.

It is a minefield and if it goes wrong then at best you'll lose some money. At worst you'll end up with a pup with massive health problems and you'll be supporting a vile trade which causes huge suffering to many dogs.

bella21 · 01/08/2009 11:53

Yes, it did sound huffy but I have thick skin!

I'm an ex vet nurse who has had dogs all her life and I can tick all the boxes for a good dog owner but the breeders I buy from still grill me - that is how it should be. If anyone offered to bring some pups round to show me I would run a mile.

Best of luck.

morethanyoubargainfor · 01/08/2009 12:01

have to say i agree with Bella,

If someone offered to bring a pup to me i too would run a mile, you really need to see where they are living, how many other dogs are there, if it is a family home or more of puppy farm. You also need to met the parents, you can learn alot from meeting these.

I did 2 six hour drives to meet my pup and his breeder before i went to collect him and we were in contact for 18 months before his birth by email and phone and still had a grilling when i went to meet them.

FattipuffsandThinnifers · 01/08/2009 12:02

Bella21 is talking absolute sense here, I fully agree. In a former job I did (undercover) journalism into puppy farming. The ad you describe sounds absolutely typical of a non-reputable breeder I'm afraid. The fact he has a) several litters, and b) delivers nationwide would ring alarm bells with me.

Paperwork itself is not relevant, anyone can register as a breeder with the KC and get 'pedigree' papers, it means nothing in itself. The papers you should insist on seeing though are the vet ones. What is also important is being able to see the mother, the other pups, in their home environment. A responsible breeder would also want to check you are a suitable owner too.

If you really do want a KCS puppy, why not approach a registered breeder? Much better bet than looking at ads in papers.

Btw a rescue centre would be much, much more thorough!

bella21 · 01/08/2009 12:11

Thank you, ladies.

Original poster

puppup · 01/08/2009 12:17

So is it a no-no to ask to deliver?

I've found a very reputable breeder,Beautiful pedigree Cavalier King Charles Spaniel pups for sale. Home bred and both parents can be seen. Come with a 5 generation pedigree, 4 weeks free insurance with Petplan, full vet check, worming, a small supply of food and a puppy information pack.

Lots of good information, shes not too far away but too far for us without transport iykwim?

In a car it woul be 45 mins,

is it not acceptable to ask her to come to us with pup?

OP posts:

Original poster

puppup · 01/08/2009 12:19

So is it a no-no to ask to deliver?

Lots of good information, shes not too far away but too far for us without transport iykwim?

In a car it woul be 45 mins,

is it not acceptable to ask her to come to us with pup?

Her pups are double the price but am weary of originl seller as just txt in reply to papers query

'no papers, mates got pups with paper but they are 3600, up to you'

OP posts:

morethanyoubargainfor · 01/08/2009 12:27

I have to say if i were a breeder and someone asked me to deliever the puppy without seeing it etc i would question your committment to the dog and how oyu would deal with problems if they arise with the dog, and probably would end up saying no to you actually buying one.

Kayzr · 01/08/2009 12:29

I wouldn't deliver a dog if I was a breeder. I also wouldn't buy any puppy without Kennel Club papers.

Original poster

puppup · 01/08/2009 12:31

But its nothing to do with that,

surely brining them IS viewing it?

Surely breeders must understand that not everyone has a car and family to drive them about,

what am I supposed to do wait until there is a littler born on my road?

Not being able to drive and get to places easily does not reflect my commitent to a pet at all!

How does me not being able to drive equate to me 'not being able to cope with problems' arsing with the pup??

Sorry but thats a ridiculous statement!

OP posts:

Kayzr · 01/08/2009 12:32

Most breeders want you to see the puppies first before they let you have one.

Original poster

puppup · 01/08/2009 12:34

I'm very commited to any dog I get, other wise I would NOT be looking into it,

If I drove then I would be able to just hop in the car and do viewings all over the place but the fact is I can't!

It makes me very sad to think that I would be seen as flippant because of this.

And If I am so flippant why would I ask a question about papers, be told and given information and then totally disregard my original plan and seller on the basis of your good advice, not to mention adding another £300 onto the price?!

OP posts:

Kayzr · 01/08/2009 12:45

Most breeders would see you as flippant though, that is the problem.

beautifulgirls · 01/08/2009 12:58

Ultimately papers do not actually matter, but the point people are making here is that responsible breeders who try to breed for good health rather than income are most likely to be the people who register the pups with the kennel club. In turn they are not very likely to be the people who will ship a pup anywhere as they feel a responsibility to any pups to ensure they are placed with a good home. It does not mean you are not going to be a good owner, but it should be telling you a lot about who you choose to get a puppy from.
I think if you are that committed to getting a good puppy you will find a way to get to a good breeder, even if that is a 45 minute drive away. Can you get a friend to take you, can you hire a car for a day if you can drive yourself?
Please also consider what you would do in an emergency if you needed to get the dog to a vet and it was not walking distance away - your nearest vet may well be walking distance but it doesn't automatically follow that that is where you would be seen out of hours if necessary. I'm still not suggesting you are going to be a bad owner, but I think you need to consider this if you haven't already.
Hope you can find a nice healthy pup without too much difficulty :-)

wildfig · 01/08/2009 13:01

Please don't feel got at! It's just that reputable, committed breeders will want to see you as much as you'll want to see their puppies, to be sure their precious pups are going to the 'right' person. And as far as the papers goes, even if the dogs aren't going to be shown in the show ring, most breeders will want to register them with the KC. Their breeding programmes - if they're reputable - are as much about continuing their lines as making money from selling puppies, probably more so. That said, on their own the KC papers don't mean much, but along with vet papers, it's a reasonable sign that the breeder's concerned about health and not just cash.

My skin is crawling at the 'mate whose got pups with paper' - it sounds exactly like a puppy farmer. You need to be so careful with CKCS; as Bella says, they suffer from some heart-breaking diseases and are often farmed in horrible conditions. The other lady's pups might be double the price, but if she's health-checked her dam, checked out the sire, done all the vaccinations, etc, she's probably winding up not making much money from the litter. The only way to make money from puppies is to cut corners and breed intensively, ie, puppy farm.

Can't you get a lift to see her and the puppies? It might cost you a little more now, but it might be nothing compared to the amount you could end up paying out for years of vet treatment to keep a sickly puppy going.

And fattipuffs is right: a rescue would insist on doing home checks & interviews before they'd let you take a dog home. No one's saying you're flippant - you're obviously taking it really seriously and will give a puppy a fantastic home, but these are big warning bells and we're just trying to help!

newpup · 01/08/2009 13:02

puppup, no one is questioning your commitment. Just offering sensible advice.

There are some really dodgy people who make a living breeding dogs in awful conditions to sell. These dogs can be inbred or have terrible health problems. Cavaliers are gorgeaus but as a breed there are some issues with health that are truly dreadful so you would need to be very careful about where they come from.

A reputable breeder would not bring a pup to you, sorry but is true. A good breeder would want you to come and see the pups with their mother.

Everything Bella21 said is good advice and if you were to contact a vet they would offer the same advice.

Surely, you can find transport to go and see the pups? A friend who can take you?

morethanyoubargainfor · 01/08/2009 13:02

I don't actually htink anyone on here has suggested you would be a bad owner, nor was my 'statement' a ridiculous one. I t is exactly the same as beatifulgirls said but she just put it better.

Excuse me for trying to offer you help, which i thought was the whole point of you posting on here. was it not?

wildfig · 01/08/2009 13:03

Sorry - cross post with beautifulgirls!

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