KC registered and papers, how important for new pup? Help needed please.

[puppup]

We have been looking at King Charles Spaniel puppies in our local area,

the price seems to be from £300, £350, £400 and upto £500.

There was a chap with an advert up for £280 pups, as follows

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel puppies. Dogs & Bitches. Various colours. Mum can be seen. Fully vet checked. reared in family home with children and other pets. Nationwide delivery at extra cost if distance is a prob . . .

So DH calls him, they are both full KCS (the parents I mean) the pups are full KCS.

The pups have no papers,
I was a bit concerned about this until I rang and talked to a breeder who was selling £500 pups, she said her pups don't have papers as they are sold as pets.

So is this something to worry about or not?

I mean I'm not bothered about showing or breeding, she will jst be a family pet.

If I got a mongrel from a rescue centre it wouldn't matter? so does it matter here?

Thanks.

[bella21]

Agree with OOM - champdogs is quite good, but you still need to know waht you are looking for and the questions to ask. When Iwas getting my latest pup there were litters on there whose parents had not had the relevant health checks.

Find out what screening can be done on the breed you're looking at, and then find out what is an average score or acceptable result. If its a score you're looking at (e.g. hip scores) try to get as low a score as possible.

The health side is just one facet. A pup's temperament is largely determined by its mother, to a lesser degree by its father, and to some extent by its early experiences. They should be exposed to as much of normal family life as possible before they go to their new homes if they are to make good pets.

There are very good breeders out there - you just have to do quite a lot of work to find them. Then you have to work like mad to persuade them you're good enough to have one of their pups - many of the popular breeds from good lines will have all puppies sold before they are born

Alternatively, go to a good rescue place and get a mutt who needs a new home. I've gone down both routes

Misdee - once you know the name of the dam and sire you can usually put that into google and it will bring up the kennel club's screening records.

[oneopinionatedmother]

any sob story = bad news. sensible breeders don't mate their dogs if they are going through a trauma themselves.

www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html

have a word with your local rescue (though if anyone here knows different for this particular breed, please say, i have generally found breed rescue people to be passionate about welfare)

I am wary of champdogs though it is much better than epupz.

frankly, good breeders aren't generally too willing to sell you their puppy - they home check, and subject youto a thorough investigation to ensure you wll give their much-loved pup a good home.
I still remember being allowed to buy a dog from a very disdainful breeder..but that's the right way for it to be. too many dogs get homed by people that can't cope and end up in rescue - worse still that puppy harmers profit from this.

i think a dog is alovely thing for you and children - my daughters first word was 'dog'.
Research what you want with the time you have - sometimes being pre-approved by a good breeder means you get a lovely pet from a wonderful litter at no more cost than some sickly little pup of dubious heritage from a puppy farm.

the main problem is: however dodgy the pup you get, you love them very quickly, and its heart breaking when they get ill/ have behavioural problems and you can't keep them.

[Kayzr]

Misdee, try Champdogs. It lists puppies available and breeders. So you can research breeders. You could then contact some to see if they are planning to breed in the next year/2 years.

[foxinsocks]

this is making me all broody for a dog

we are hoping to get a retired greyhound but only in a few years time when the dcs are old enough to take the dog for walks themselves

our nanny has a dog and I've been amazed how wonderful it has been for the children. A lovely experience.

I hope you all get your dogs soon!

[misdee]

bella, my googling skills arent upto much, can you help with a good site to start at please?

[JodieO]

There are those scams all over gumtree at the moment. I've seen them and been emailed aftr asking about dogs a couple of weeks ago. Definitely a scam, who on earth would courier dogs?

[bella21]

Misdee - sounds like you're going about it the right way. Go for health checks (on the parents) - ignore show results, and check the age of the mother. Many CKCS are bred far too young, before heart problems show up, and pass it on to their offspring. And that's just one of their problems

The kennel club keeps a register of the health checks passed by dogs and you can usually get this by googling.

Best of luck.

[misdee]

Thanks for your mail response in regard of my puppies these are male and female puppies ,Before we proceed these puppies are well socialized with kids and pets like cats,Very friendly with people,They love to play with their toys,And they have an outstanding temperament,These puppies represents the highest standard of pure breed puppies..........They very Intelligent and Compactly built,Registered ,Pedigree,Health Guarantee Certificate of Veterinary Inspection ,Micro-Chipped (in case ever lost or stolen) Current on all vaccinations,Wormed ,puppies Packet (Toys, Vaccination schedule and history, Crate Training info.., Potty Training info.) Already diaper Trained Travel Crate with delivery,they will be coming with health certificate,KC registration papers.
also simple to learn... they are 11 weeks old
To begin I will start asking you some questions But i am very sorry is because i am looking for a lovely person who can take very good care of my puppies ...
-Are you a breeder?
-Do you have kids?
-Are use to puppies?
If so,are they good with pets?
If Not then Do you have some one that will always play with her?
Have you ever raised (Owned) a puppy before?
Do you Own Other Pets?
How is your Working Schedule?
Are you getting him For your Self or for Some one Else?
Do you own a house if so Do you have something like a playground(Back Yard) where you can take these puppies to play on?
If not then is there some where like a A Park Near Your Home Where You can take her On Short Walks?Do you have Any Pictures you can send to me so i can see she will be going to a loving home?
Do you want to Breed her?
How Soon Do you Want Her?
Where are you Located?
-Are you sure that you are going to take care of any of my babies?
-Gift me a Brief Description about your Environment?
-Do you have a vet doctor?
-Were Exactly are you located?
-Can I have your phone number to reach you?

As you have already seen in the ad, i
am giving out them for sale since they were owned and taken care of by my late wife whom i lost to a drunk driver couple of weeks ago. As a result, i have relocated in Dundee Scotland due the mobile nature of my job and right now i can't take proper care of the puppies which was a sole responsibility of my late wife. They really do remind me of her sad memories all the time i look at them and hurts deeply. So, my greatest desire is to find someone who can properly take care of the puppies and if you can, i can arrange for delivery if you cannot come right up here for the pick. Delivery am sure will be moderate since we spent just too little bringing the puppies up here. If this is OK by you, Let me how soon you will need these puppies at you home?So let me know what sex you will love to have as a family companion.So that i can send you the pictures.Do let me know if all is fine ..you can ring me on ||*** thanks for understanding _

[misdee]

the reply i've had suggeasts its not a farm, but an out and out scam

[misdee]

see, i dont know what i'm looking for. at first the price made me go but theni clicked and thought, hmmm maybe its ok. its only when i clicked through to their other ads did i see what amde me go in the first place.

am ioff to hunt for a reputable breeder, and start some chats with a view to maybe buying a pup in 18months to 2years time.

[bella21]

misdee - re asking for money back clause, that is standard practice in a pedigree sale contract (but please don't go through that ad, it looks all wrong).

[wildfig]

definitely second the breed rescue/rescue centre option - we rehomed a 3 year old who'd come back to her breeder, and now have a puppy too. Knowing what I know now (and knowing what I didn't know!) am glad we started with a relatively calm adult before entering puppy madness.

[bella21]

OP - I don't think anyone has suggested you are being flippant but it is very clear that you have very little knowledge of the subject and so you are just the sort of person that puppy farmers/bad breeders are looking for.

I don't mean that as an insult, just a statement of fact.

I was about to make the point Beautifulgirls made, about getting to the vet if transport is such a problem.

Puppy farming is a very lucrative business and people can be very clever in disguising what they are doing.

If you are really serious about getting a dog then either go to your local, reputable rescue centre or be prepared to do a lot of learning, both about dogs in general and about your preferred breed.

And a little thank you to all the people who have taken time to advise you might be nice.

btw, I think the ad in the link is well dodgy.

[oneopinionatedmother]

bringing the puppy - No! No!

IT IS WHAT PUPPY FARMERS DO.

Fattipuffs & thiniffers - totally right.

any reputable breeder will not sell to people who don't home visit (so you can be approved by the brood bitch)

why not phone your local breed rescue person to recommend a good breeder or possibly even a puppy that needs rehoming?

Breed club members tend to abide by a better code of conduct than demanded by the KC. (vast generalisation - seeing the litter with mum very important)

[newpup]

scary thought isn't it!

[misdee]

oh we're not looking for now. dd4 is too young atm. ideally i want her to be 3yrs+

but that ad looked all well and good, but it was only wheni clicked on view other ads that alarm bells were set off. it looks too good to be true.

but even me, who is very wary thought 'hmmm maybe that ad is above board'

[newpup]

misdee puppies are big business and there are really sick people out there who deal in puppy farming.

Beware of anyone with cheap 'pedigree' pups, anyone who offers to bring the dog to you and anyone desperate to sell.

Maybe you could contact a local vet or dog training class and ask if they could recommend a breeder.

[misdee]

now my alarm bells are ringing as when i click on view their other ads, 4 different breeds pop up, ut all different user names.

odd

[misdee]

TIS AD HAS ME CNFUSED THOUGH

can see parents, see pups,visit the home etc etc, but is cheaper than most.

would the owner/breeder be offneded if i asked for a money back clause if vet finds an issue?

[misdee]

we are looking at the same breed as you. the breed has well documented heart prolems and other issues, which is a big cause of concern. we have been looking at prices, and round here its averag £550 for a pup. we are going to save up £750, that gives us nough for a pup and a full vet check up and any teething issues. we are going to have a look at pups, make contact with local breeders and have some long chats as well.

thrre is a local shop which sells pups cheaper, but iwont buy from there. pens with puppies in, no parents to view, it doesnt sit well with me. my dbro and his ex bought a pup from there a few years ago, and one day he was walking the pup and she collasped and died. he was distraught. but at the time they didnt know.

[Kayzr]

Some breeders may deliver to you but not until you have been to see the puppies with their mother and they have been able to talk to you.

[wildfig]

Sorry - cross post with beautifulgirls!

[morethanyoubargainfor]

I don't actually htink anyone on here has suggested you would be a bad owner, nor was my 'statement' a ridiculous one. I t is exactly the same as beatifulgirls said but she just put it better.

Excuse me for trying to offer you help, which i thought was the whole point of you posting on here. was it not?

[newpup]

puppup, no one is questioning your commitment. Just offering sensible advice.

There are some really dodgy people who make a living breeding dogs in awful conditions to sell. These dogs can be inbred or have terrible health problems. Cavaliers are gorgeaus but as a breed there are some issues with health that are truly dreadful so you would need to be very careful about where they come from.

A reputable breeder would not bring a pup to you, sorry but is true. A good breeder would want you to come and see the pups with their mother.

Everything Bella21 said is good advice and if you were to contact a vet they would offer the same advice.

Surely, you can find transport to go and see the pups? A friend who can take you?

[wildfig]

Please don't feel got at! It's just that reputable, committed breeders will want to see you as much as you'll want to see their puppies, to be sure their precious pups are going to the 'right' person. And as far as the papers goes, even if the dogs aren't going to be shown in the show ring, most breeders will want to register them with the KC. Their breeding programmes - if they're reputable - are as much about continuing their lines as making money from selling puppies, probably more so. That said, on their own the KC papers don't mean much, but along with vet papers, it's a reasonable sign that the breeder's concerned about health and not just cash.

My skin is crawling at the 'mate whose got pups with paper' - it sounds exactly like a puppy farmer. You need to be so careful with CKCS; as Bella says, they suffer from some heart-breaking diseases and are often farmed in horrible conditions. The other lady's pups might be double the price, but if she's health-checked her dam, checked out the sire, done all the vaccinations, etc, she's probably winding up not making much money from the litter. The only way to make money from puppies is to cut corners and breed intensively, ie, puppy farm.

Can't you get a lift to see her and the puppies? It might cost you a little more now, but it might be nothing compared to the amount you could end up paying out for years of vet treatment to keep a sickly puppy going.

And fattipuffs is right: a rescue would insist on doing home checks & interviews before they'd let you take a dog home. No one's saying you're flippant - you're obviously taking it really seriously and will give a puppy a fantastic home, but these are big warning bells and we're just trying to help!