At my wits end with lack of consequences for 3yo, what worked for you?

[alittleconfused1]

I am a heavily sleep deprived mum who needs some inspiration - please help!

My daughter is 3 1/2. She's generally a lovely girl and pretty easy going but definitely going through some big emotions at the moment, so lots of devastation and floods of tears at the smallest of things.

Some of this is probably not helped by lack of sleep. She has never been a great sleeper and I have posted on here before, but about 4 months ago things started to come together and she stopped getting up at night and slept 11-12 hours a night. She stopped napping at about 26 months so it wasn't that. We have recently (finally) swapped to a duvet from sleeping bags which didn't have an initial impact but the last 2 weeks her sleep has gone all wrong again. She is up once or twice a night and I have to sit with her to get her back to sleep, sometimes this can take up to an hour. When I ask why she got up it is invariably 'she wanted a cuddle'. Every night we talk about waking up and rolling over and going back to sleep, she won't get mummy up etc. All ignored. I have checked she isn't too hot too cold etc but she does it no matter what.

She is also now getting up at 5am. This is where I need help. We have a Gro Clock, black out blinds, white noise, a star jar for when she stays in bed etc etc., but she ignores all of it and just gets up at 5. I am resigned to that for a while but what I can't cope with is what happens next. We have the Gro Clock at 6am - we started it at 5am and moved it back 5 mins like they say, but as soon as it gets to 'too late' in her eyes she just ignores it. This morning she was up at 5, I went in and explained not time yet etc., sat with her but she didn't go back to sleep. I said I would lie with her for 10 mins and then she could get up and listen to her Yoto whilst I went back to bed. I explained if she was nice and quiet for 10 mins she could watch her favourite program when she got up. She didn't stay quiet. But I stuck to it and then said she could get up (after 10 mins) and listen to her Yoto or read her books but she needed to stay in her room until the Gro clock came on... which was about 20 mins later.

She must have come in 20 times, this had happened, that had happened, she wanted a cuddle, she couldn't get her dress off the hanger she wanted to put on, she wanted to get up etc etc. Every time I walked her back and said stay there until clock lights up... 2 mins later she was back. She has no concept of consequences, she flat ignores me, she then sat on her bed crying and crying and screaming (waking the whole terrace I am sure) because she wanted to get up. When the clock came on I tried to park it and told her to come in and gave her a cuddle, then we came downstairs and she wanted to watch telly.. no recollection of the consequence (no telly) of messing around and getting up etc.

I know at this age there are still a lot of areas of development - especially around discipline, I know its better to encourage than threaten (hence star jar, motivational speeches etc) but it feels like nothing is resonating. I am so tried and get so frustrated (I find it so triggering) I end up is cross with her, or so upset as I can't cope with it, none of which are a great way to start the day. I really want to be a gentle parent but gentle is just out the window when someone is so deliberately ignorant!

Does anyone have any tips? How do I get her to listen to me?

Thanks so much!!

She is 3 and needs your reassurance and attention. I would try cosleeping if she wakes up and just go to bed early as you can yourself. I think you need to adjust yoir expectations of what a 3 year old needs and is capable of. Sorry, lack of sleep is awful.

I'm no expert, but i would say you are engaging too much verbally with her when she wakes up. I would just say 'its still bedtime, im sleeping' and that is it, then either return her to her room if she comes out or just leave her to play in her room on her own.

Thanks, I have tried that, both in her bed and on another on the floor. Once she is awake, no matter how much I explain it's the middle of the night etc., she just messes around, poking me, or singing or kicking the bed repeatedly just saying 'I am not sleepy' on repeat! Which is why I started trying the letting her get up method, as people seem to think that works, but she just seems to forget (deliberately or not) that she is supposed to stay in her room.

She needs emotional reassurance when she wakes. She's very young.

OP, I think clear consequences are more important for addressing naughty behaviour (eg pushing another child, drawing on the wall, things like that), not for making her go to sleep. She's an early riser and it's hard for her to change that.

We resorted to bald faced bribery. Stay in bed until (in our case) the Yoto player changes to wake up colour and she gets a sweetie.

Probably not the best parenting ever but we’ve had significant sleep problems her whole life. we’ve spent thousands on help and devices getting her to sleep… and it worked very well.

She’s been a good sleeper since about 4 if that helps but is still quite low sleep needs.

Thanks, and I do agree. I guess the bit I am stuck with is the not staying in her room.. I don’t know if she ignores me deliberately or not. She’s quite happy in there and isn’t distressed etc but always onto the next thing so forever coming back out.

She's lonely, bored and insecure.

It's developmentally normal to want company at her age.

You're fighting human nature.

At this age, both mine couldn't really be made to stay in bed. I just let them get in with us and sort of dozed for a bit or sat in bed. We did have a very long period of 5am wakes with both kids though which was cripplingly tiring so you have my sympathy.

I would only try "consequences" with my 3 year old as PP has said with quite serious things - throwing toys, hitting brother etc. grow clock made zero difference to mine at this age. The 5 year old will now stay in bed until the yoto shows sun but he's older and went through long phases where he would shout and wake everyone.

Tiredness is awful but you just have to find ways to go to bed really early, share with your partner if you have one and ride it out.

Thank you, sounds similar as we have always had issues with sleep and even sleep trained twice but it’s worn off both times!! Maybe the star jar takes too long and I need an instant reward. Good to know it does improve eventually- thank you

You’re not going to like this but… my daughter is very similar. There are two things going on with her. Yes I think she has low sleep needs but mostly the waking up and refusing to go back to sleep and the waking you up is all about separation anxiety. She does not want to be left by herself and personally I think giving her consequences for that is harsh (and also probably pointless as she just isn’t going to understand at 3.5).

We just decided to co-sleep with our now 4.5 year old (we take it in turns). It’s not ideal on a number of levels and I know a lot of people will disagree with this approach. But the only way my daughter sleeps well (and therefore the only way we can sleep well!) is if she knows she won’t wake up and be alone.

We had a big regression about 3.5 - in our case because we moved her from her cot bed to a big girl bed - and the sweetie option was the last in a long line of attempts to solve the problem! We even paid for a consult with the lady who helped us when she was about 1.5. God I remember feeling like death that winter.

Ours doesn’t get sweeties very often so it was a massive incentive for her, you could sub it with something else she is extremely keen for.

Explain to her that she can play quietly in her room until 6am. One of you have to get up by 6am though.

No talking when she comes out of her room, take her straight back in and close the door.

If she persists, does that screaming or anything like that, you start to take things away for her behaviour. No park, no toys, no Whatever. She can absolutely understand that she isn't meant to do something and she is doing it anyway. It's just because she has never been given any consequences for her actions.

Why isn't her dad getting up with her? Take it in turns, that way at least one of you gets more sleep. I agree about keeping the talking to a minimum in the middle of the night but there's not much you can do about her waking at 5 unfortunately. Sleep deprivation awful, much sympathy op.

You are expecting way too much from a child her age. Consequences need to be reserved for bad behaviour and need to be immediate. She's not behaving badly, she just needs a cuddle.

Personally I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. It's the sleep that's causing the issue. If she didn't wake so much/so early you wouldn't be dealing with the behaviour at all. Fix the sleep again and it'll sort itself out.

You said you've sleep trained twice and it's worn off. It will, you need to adjust it as time goes on as their needs change. What time does she go to sleep on an evening, how many wakes through the night and what time is she up for the day? She could be overtired from constant early wakes or she could be undertired from going to bed too early, they both lead to disrupted sleep.

I agree it’s the sleep that’s the issue, why does she need someone sitting with her for an hour to get back to sleep? Teach her to get herself to sleep without you there then most of this will likely resolve.

I don't disagree!! Her sleep has always been a challenge. To be honest I feel like she is either permanently overtired or under tired and we never find a middle ground. If she gets up at 5 she's often on her knees by 3 and if we are in the car she might fall asleep. If not in the car or she stays awake she goes to bed about 6.30/7.. sometimes asleep within 5 minutes sometimes longer. I sit with her whilst she falls asleep because, whilst it's a complete pain, I figure that I know she can fall asleep solo because she has/does and also she won't need me to forever. Sleep training was incredibly challenging and the lady who helped me said she was the most determined child she had dealt with - we didn't cry it out but did the check ins every few minutes and the first night it took and hour and 45 minutes (aged 2). The maddening thing is we will go weeks where she sleeps through, or wakes but resettles herself and then other phases like now where she really needs me, its all incredibly frustrating x

My DD was like this, and I rolled with it. she is so tiny. It won’t be like this forever. I know sleep deprivation is torture but she’s not being naughty, she just needs you.

We had a similar issue with our oldest when he was around 2 1/2, but at bedtime. We’d do the bedtime routine and then he would find every possible reason to come out the room and get us, he just refused to stay in bed. We’d tried what felt like everything - staying in with him, taking him back every time he came out, check ins etc, and the only thing that worked was ignoring him. When he came out of his room, we’d sit on our bed in darkness, and the only thing we’d say was “it’s bedtime, go back to bed” or similar. The first couple of nights it took an hour or so, but eventually he’d get bored and shuffle himself back to bed. Within a few days he’d go back in after a minute or two, and it wasn’t long until he didn’t come out at all. It sounds harsh, but for us it was effective, he’s now 3 1/2 and almost always sleeps through. It sounds like what your daughter wants is attention (and it probably doesn’t matter if that’s good or bad attention) so the only thing that’s likely to be effective is removing that attention.

If she's up at 5am and struggling to make it to bedtime do a short car nap to get her to bedtime without getting overtired. It she pushes through try making bedtime even earlier or she'll be wired which is when she'll struggle to fall asleep and stay asleep. Shes not choosing to wake in the night, it'll be because of everything else. Also nothing wrong with staying with her while she falls asleep, I do that with my 4 year old and he still sleeps through.

She shouldn't need full sleep training at this point since she was already sleeping through. Just needs a bit of a reset to get her out of being overtired :)

We eventually put a single bed mattress beside our bed and dd was allowed to come in when she woke up but had to be quiet.
There were books and teddies on it.
She stopped using it when she was 11!
You have my sympathies

@alittleconfused1 I know early starts are tough (trust me, been there) but 5am is just that - an early start, not the middle of the night, especially if she is, as you say in an update, often asleep at 6.30pm. It's really normal for kids her age.

I managed by making the mornings as comfortable as possible. I'd get into his bed (he had a single bed by 3 and a small double by 5) and read or put an audio book on or just get us comfortable and stay in bed as long as possible, especially in winter. If he was still awake at 6 (he almost always was) we'd get up, have breakfast, watch a bit of telly. Then it's basically time to start the day anyway.

Our rule is do a peepee and then come cuddle me. I get nice cuddles for 20 and then it's "I'm hungrrrrrry" And I don't do anything in the food dept until papa brings me a coffee so he nags him instead 🤣

Agree with this