At my wits end with lack of consequences for 3yo, what worked for you?

[alittleconfused1]

I am a heavily sleep deprived mum who needs some inspiration - please help!

My daughter is 3 1/2. She's generally a lovely girl and pretty easy going but definitely going through some big emotions at the moment, so lots of devastation and floods of tears at the smallest of things.

Some of this is probably not helped by lack of sleep. She has never been a great sleeper and I have posted on here before, but about 4 months ago things started to come together and she stopped getting up at night and slept 11-12 hours a night. She stopped napping at about 26 months so it wasn't that. We have recently (finally) swapped to a duvet from sleeping bags which didn't have an initial impact but the last 2 weeks her sleep has gone all wrong again. She is up once or twice a night and I have to sit with her to get her back to sleep, sometimes this can take up to an hour. When I ask why she got up it is invariably 'she wanted a cuddle'. Every night we talk about waking up and rolling over and going back to sleep, she won't get mummy up etc. All ignored. I have checked she isn't too hot too cold etc but she does it no matter what.

She is also now getting up at 5am. This is where I need help. We have a Gro Clock, black out blinds, white noise, a star jar for when she stays in bed etc etc., but she ignores all of it and just gets up at 5. I am resigned to that for a while but what I can't cope with is what happens next. We have the Gro Clock at 6am - we started it at 5am and moved it back 5 mins like they say, but as soon as it gets to 'too late' in her eyes she just ignores it. This morning she was up at 5, I went in and explained not time yet etc., sat with her but she didn't go back to sleep. I said I would lie with her for 10 mins and then she could get up and listen to her Yoto whilst I went back to bed. I explained if she was nice and quiet for 10 mins she could watch her favourite program when she got up. She didn't stay quiet. But I stuck to it and then said she could get up (after 10 mins) and listen to her Yoto or read her books but she needed to stay in her room until the Gro clock came on... which was about 20 mins later.

She must have come in 20 times, this had happened, that had happened, she wanted a cuddle, she couldn't get her dress off the hanger she wanted to put on, she wanted to get up etc etc. Every time I walked her back and said stay there until clock lights up... 2 mins later she was back. She has no concept of consequences, she flat ignores me, she then sat on her bed crying and crying and screaming (waking the whole terrace I am sure) because she wanted to get up. When the clock came on I tried to park it and told her to come in and gave her a cuddle, then we came downstairs and she wanted to watch telly.. no recollection of the consequence (no telly) of messing around and getting up etc.

I know at this age there are still a lot of areas of development - especially around discipline, I know its better to encourage than threaten (hence star jar, motivational speeches etc) but it feels like nothing is resonating. I am so tried and get so frustrated (I find it so triggering) I end up is cross with her, or so upset as I can't cope with it, none of which are a great way to start the day. I really want to be a gentle parent but gentle is just out the window when someone is so deliberately ignorant!

Does anyone have any tips? How do I get her to listen to me?

Thanks so much!!

I would just let mine get in bed with us if they woke up in the early morning and quietly watch something on an ipad while we went back to sleep.

I think just minimise the reward of getting up, put her back to her room and say "clock is red, stay here" the first time and then nothing after that. Then when it goes green come in and make a big deal "wow it's morning let's sing/have a cuddle/get dressed together" or whatever you can manage.
It's not something you're doing wrong, you're just unlucky. For what small consolation that is!
Sleep is so foundational to everything else that there's a reason they use it to torture people! Hopefully our little ones aren't training to be an interrogator.

I know you’re exhausted but your dd sounds adorable!

Could you go to bed an hour earlier and just get up at 5am? Only an idea

I don't think there's any way to force her to go back to sleep and it does seem a bit harsh to leave her sitting alone. I'd shut her inside your room with a few quiet toys and go back to bed (and then yeah, don't engage beyond a 'mum is sleeping'). She gets company and you can (hopefully eventually) sleep, or at least rest.

The most helpful advice I ever got was to respond slowly and be very, very boring. She’ll work out that there’s no point bothering you because it’s not interesting.

The adult version of this approach is apparently to clean the oven or something equally horrible. Your brain doesn’t want to do the nasty job, so it stops waking up.

My DD is the same age and she can come in to our room up to 3 times a night, I just get up and put her back to bed and say see you in the morning. Sometimes I have been so tired I have picked her up and put her into bed with us without even realising!! She can come in any time from around 5:30am, if she does we just let her sit or lie down in bed with us and she waits until 6am and then we will put something on the telly for her to watch while we doze.

What time does she go to bed? If it’s 7pm then 5am wake up is within reasonable bounds. Not all children need 12 hours a night.

op, I have a young toddler as a baby napped long enough for the kettle to boil for the hot cup of tea I never had! She didn’t sleep until she was 18 months through the night and we are still up at 5.15am.

i am no expert but just wanted to say, when she is up, I get up. We start our day, nappy change before we go for stairs, Tate the dog out and head into the playroom with my coffee until breakfast. My child isn’t in nursery or school so I suppose that means we can nap together on some days. Would your other half do some 5am mornings? Just to help with you get some rest? I know how super exhausting it is. I used to be in tears with fatigue…

This DS was the same ( now doing a PHD at Oxford) I think very bright people sometimes need less sleep than us mortals. By age 3 we were pushing bedtime to 8pm to get a 6:30 wake up, once MIL put him to bed before 7 and yes bingo 5am alarm call. She needs a later bed time.

I’m sorry OP - this sounds so frustrating! Early mornings are definitely NOT my thing.

Can you set her up the night before - white noise going on through the night and bridges over the 5am danger zone. And taking her to the loo at 10/11pm so her bladder isn’t the thing that’s making her stir? I read that she’s always been a tricky sleeper so that might just be a drop in the ocean.

other than that, calm (ha!), consistent and boring. ‘Back to bed, it’s bedtime. I’ll see you when the clock is green’. Repeat repeat repeat.

You are engaging with her and trying to negotiate with her, which is a reward for behaviour you do not want to encourage.

Get a toddler-weight weighted blanket for her.

Watch Supernanny sleep advice and stick to that. It involves minimal or no speech, no cuddles, just a kind but firm return to bed. You can expect meltdowns to begin with, but persevere.

You cannot keep on rewarding this while hoping to stop it.

Return her to her room with minimal interaction.

"It is not time to be up yet. Stay in your room".
Do this every time. Do not engage in conversation. You'll be up and down like a yoyo to begin with.

Unfortunately some children naturally wake up really early. DS did this for years, actually he's still an early riser at 15. The difference is he gets up and entertains himself, he's yet to sleep past 8am.

I would just concentrate on the night wakings, I'm afraid the 5am can just be normal for some children. You could try slowly changing her bedtime to see if it helps. But I think expecting them to stay in bed an hour at this age when they are awake is a bit to much.

I used to have to get up with DS and take him downstairs as at that point he still shared a room with his sister and would just end up waking up everyone. A glow clock never worked.

Before anyone asks about his dad I got up as Dad was working and at that point I wasn't so it seemed fair to let him sleep especially during the week.

Sounds like she sleeps well if she goes 7-5 and is just an early riser. I’d just take it turns to get up with her and go to bed earlier. It is just a season of life whilst she wants you when she wakes. It won’t last forever. I’d rather that personally than the battle of trying to get her to stay in her room and starting the day with screaming and crying. Some battles just aren’t worth it.

I had a similar issue with my son who was 4 before he slept through the night.
I don’t claim to be an expert but as he got older, I got more desperate! A friend mentioned that it wasn’t good to either stay with him until he slept or give him hot milk to help him sleep.
The rationale was that he couldn’t get himself back to sleep without these ‘aids’ . He got upset if I’d disappeared from where I was when he fell asleep. He got upset when he didn’t have the warm milk he had to soothe him back to sleep.
I couldn’t stand to hear him cry it out. So I started to move out of his room very slowly, so he got to sleep by himself (mums here but I’m sitting at the end of the bed, then doorway, then hallway, then leave the hallway light on and let him hear me in the bedroom, then light on but he could hear me downstairs and so on)
I also started to reduce milk etc
This really helped when he woke and panicked in the night. It took a while but he started to get himself back to sleep without the stress which fully awakened him before ..and then wonderfully started to sleep through.
To keep him in bed as he got older I left his padded I pad in the room and other stuff to entertain him …our bedroom was boring in comparison!
Maybe this is worth a try. I know first hand how tiring and frustrating this can be. I’m sure it won’t be too long now …I can’t get my 12year old out of bed these days!

My poor dearest DC had awful trouble getting to sleep from age about 6 to about 9. DH did his stints, but it was Mama she wanted. Unfortunately, I had to WFH every evening, so could only stay with her for an hour or so to read, cuddle, etc. She had story-tapes (in those days), which helped. But I used feel so sorry for her. One thing we finally did, when all else had failed & it was heading towards midnight & DC still couldn't sleep: we used to say something like "I'm so sorry you still can't sleep. It's so not fair. Tell you what, if you're STILL awake in half an hour we'll give you £1." For some reason this worked.We never had to pay out. Maybe, in hindsight, we should have deployed that strategy much earlier on?

Why don’t you just give her toys and tell her under no circumstances is she to come into your room? Leave a yoghurt and a drink for the morning when you go to bed.
do the super nanny routine (first time kisses after that take her back) and tell her you can do what you want but you stay in your room (make it nice obviously).

Later bed time.
Big hug, no chat, back to bed every time she wakes.
Mattress on floor at bottom of your bed ... allowed to creep in during night but the game is not to wake anyone up... the tiptoe game with rewards ...
All is well once they learn to read!

I just get in their bed next to mine through the night if they won’t stay asleep. The phase will pass and eventually I’ll wake up in the morning in my room realising they didn’t call out for me in the night.

we always co-slept/breastfed to sleep though so it’s a no brainer for us.

i am knackered though, it’s not an easy solution!

She isn’t being naughty. I don’t think consequences are appropriate. She is being a normal 3.5 yo human being who wants reassurance and attention.

Sleep deprivation is brutal. I get that you want more sleep OP, so you’re looking for answers but IMO the best adjustment you can make is to your own expectations.

She’s very young and a lark, she may always be an early riser.

If it’s 5am it’s not the middle of the night, early risers often get up around then and you need to adjust and have a quiet period (low tones) but get up with her, sorry!

Naps are natural and expected too/irritable late afternoon/early evening.

The time will pass and she will grow up and likely be happy in her own company (and you will be a bit of an irritation to her!).

Try and adjust your own schedule so you are getting enough sleep or at least resting around her.

Children.wake up for other reasons not just hot or cold. They are not robots. They start to have very vivid and often scarey nightmares. Even a normal dream can diaturb them. Starting to understand what it means os it real etc.
I have 2 DC 4 year old and 2 year old. My 2 year ood has been great with sleep but jas started to have dreams that bother him. We cosleep so we cuddle up I reassure him and he nods back to sleep.
My eldest is allowed in our room anytime and he tells me about his dreams and what scared him in his room and he doesn't like being alone. So we go tonhis room cuddle and he nods off or we end up asleep there or he sneaks into our bed and we don't notice until the morning.
I used to creep into my parenta room until I was 8 years old due to vivid dreams my older brother was 10. Obviously when younger we would not sneak in but diaturb my parents wake them up. They would alwaya sooth us and cuddle us in their bed and let us sleep there.

Some kids need more support over night thats just life. All kids are different. This "bight time sleep training" traah needs to stop circulating. Like adults children are different too with all different needs conatantly changing and developing brain. They are not robota.

The discipline thing you just have to stick at it. No TV is No TV. Don't argue with her. Just explain once clearly. If she throws a tantrum wait until she is calm and explain. I personally wouldn't start war with my child at night or around sleep etc.
Some kids do have changes in life that causes then to have disturbed sleep. Changes in family dynamocs, school/nursery/care/family.etc etc.

Have to adjust and tackle things as they arise but also no treat the child as a villian.
All the best. Parenting is hard.....but hard is not bad.

came to say this

Waking up in the night shouldn't involve engagement just put her back to bed. Be firm and consistent. At 5 am I'd encourage her to play in her room until you get up.

At 3, if ds came in, I just pulled him into bed with me and went back to sleep. I didn't bother with communicating, clocks, stuff - all too complicated. Just snuggled him in beside me.

He came in less and less, and stopped at about 5.