Controlled crying

[nurserychoices]

I created a thread this morning - i thought i had asked Mumsnet HQ to delete a message but it turned out that i had asked them to delete the entire thread instead!

I have a 9 month old, doesn't sleep well and never has been. Wakes up every 1.5 to 2 hours every night and currently breastfed to sleep (sleeps in the cot at night). Naps are on me. Bedtime routine is bath, story, boob bed. baby is dependent on boob to fall alseep at bedtime and during night wakes.

Thanks to those who answered my questions this morning, For those where CC was successful,

• what was your bedtime routine, and if your baby fell to sleep on the boob/bottle, did you wake him up before putting down in the cot.
• did you do cc for both nights and naps, and if yes, did you basically not go to baby groups/ out because of the nap times?
• did you have the exact same routine during bedtime and naps?
• how did you wean off the feed to sleep association?

Thank you all!

Also just to say I don't mind the contact naps at all but I really want longer stretches of sleep at night, it also takes ages for me to put baby down again each time he wakes!

We did CC (Ferber method) at 7 months and had success within about 10 days. DD has generally slept through since (barring illness etc) and is now 20 months.

What was your bedtime routine, and if your baby fell to sleep on the boob/bottle, did you wake him up before putting down in the cot.

Pre CC our routine was story in her room in the light, then lights out, then bottle in the pitch black so she fell asleep on it, then a little rocking if she wasn’t totally asleep by the end of the bottle, then down into the cot. Naps were always contact naps unless we got really lucky and she’d do half an hour in the pram (rare, and she would need to keep moving for the whole nap).

When we did Cc for naps we did a dark room, white noise, a cuddle and then down into the cot. 1, 3, 5, 7 and 10 minute intervals for going in and shushing and putting. If no joy after that time (which was about half an hour) we’d bring her down for 20 mins then try again.

Once she was settling within 10 mins for naps (about 7/10 days)we introduced it at bedtime, and so instead of feeding to sleep in the dark and then rocking, she got a story and bottle in a low lit room so she didn’t fall asleep totally then into the cot and the same intervals until she settled.

Did you do cc for both nights and naps, and if yes, did you basically not go to baby groups/ out because of the nap times?

We actually did CC for naps first because the contact napping was killing me (and my back) after 7 months - she was 92nd percentile and by that point I was struggling! Once we’d nailed it for naps - which was the hard bit - we introduced it for bedtime and it was pretty smooth sailing in comparison.

Did you have the exact same routine during bedtime and naps?

As above :)

How did you wean off the feed to sleep association?

She wasn’t used to feeding to sleep for naps which tbh really helped. With the nighttime sleep, instead of feeding to sleep in the dark she was feeding to full/cosy in the low light but going down awake. By the time she was 1 we were feeding her downstairs in the full light before going upstairs for story etc, she was fine with that transition by that stage.

Hi @ShadowPuppets thanks for your detailed message! I am now in two minds whether I should start at bedtime or day, myson doesn't sleep in the pram either!

@ShadowPuppets just to ask you never picked her up when doing CC? Just shush and pat? My son would scream louder in that case

i got my husband to do the first night as I felt she massively associated me with milk and would want that 😂 we did this at 8 months

We tried for 8pm bed time - my husband literally did bath, book, then gave her a cuddle and put her in the cot and he initially tried the standing in the room next to the cot patting and reassuring her this went on for 30 mins it was awful she was crying the whole time (I had to put headphones on to stop me going in)

he eventually left the room and timed 5 mins then went back in to reassure then 10 mins - by the time the 10mins was up she was asleep! Then she slept until 3am after previously waking hourly 🙈

I fed her some milk at that point and put her back in the cot and she slept through to 8!

and that was it - night 2 she cried for 15 mins and then slept and gradually it got less and less time that she cried after being put down.

then she started having no issue being put in cot for naps

now she’s 14 months and she loves her cot there’s no more feeding to sleep I usually give her milk around 6.30pm and then we read and she goes asleep 7-7 now 🙈

what was your bedtime routine, and if your baby fell to sleep on the boob/bottle, did you wake him up before putting down in the cot.
Bedtime routine is feed downstairs in the living room, nappy change, book, white noise machine, sing and then in to cot wide awake. You definitely don't want the baby falling asleep during the feed and there should really be a gap of 30 minutes between the end of the feed and bum in cot to avoid any feed to sleep associations.

did you do cc for both nights and naps, and if yes, did you basically not go to baby groups/ out because of the nap times?
Did nights first and once they were solid I did naps. Naps were harder but I think that's probably because I had the wake windows far too short at the time. You don't need to do all naps at once, I aimed for 2 naps a day in the cot and then if I needed to have one on the go that was fine. Try to have a solid daytime schedule before starting CC because undertired/overtired babies don't respond well to CC. I just did what I needed to do to get the desired daytime naps (contact napping and feeding to sleep) so that I was in the best place to work on nights first.

did you have the exact same routine during bedtime and naps?
Naps is a shorter version of bedtime routine, I just read a few pages of his book and I don't worry about the 30 minute gap between feed and cot.

how did you wean off the feed to sleep association?
By teaching your baby to fall asleep independently, this is where the CC comes in. And try to keep the feed separated from bedtime by having it at the beginning of your routine, maybe in another room and keep your baby awake during it. I have to give a bottle at bedtime because he's guaranteed fall asleep on the boob.

Also, it's good to know that how baby falls asleep at bedtime is what matters...if you're feeding in the middle of the night then you can totally feed to sleep with no issues - this is also why you should never attempt CC at 3am if you fed to sleep at bedtime!

Last few tips:
I recommend a white noise machine and blackout blinds to help your baby fall asleep! Don't worry about 'drowsy but awake', I put my baby down wide awake most nights and he drifts off in minutes by himself now - wide awake ensures there's no lingering sleep associations. The book Precious Little Sleep was a big help to me (even more so their Facebook group but you need to have the book to join the group).

@Fupoffyagrasshole and @shivawn thank you! How did you fit in the last milk feed with the dinner ( on solids)? If I don't leave a big enough gap then he doest take much milk. Did your DC have dinner very early then?

we do dinner at about 4.45/5pm

milk at 6/6.30!

she is in nursery now though and they eat dinner at like 4.15 so it’s early. She needs something small when she gets home about 5.30 - I usually give her a slice of toast or some porridge or some sort of snack before bed Now these days.

@nurserychoices yeah I guess it’s which one is the priority to crack I guess! DD was sleeping ok at night by the time we sleep trained (1 or 2 wake ups but generally ok) so for me the naps were definitely the priority as I just felt I didn’t have a moment to myself from the second she woke until bedtime and my back was killing me from sitting perfectly angled for her naps!

We went with shushing and patting rather than picking up as DD was used to being rocked to sleep (I think this was the bigger association to break for her, rather than feeding) and when you picked her up she expected rocking and would get much more grumpy when you put her down again! Generally we were just nipping in to reassure her we were there and she was safe etc.

I second the advice about getting your OH to help if at all possible (especially if breastfeeding is the association you’re trying to break) - I’d moved on to bottle feeding by the point we sleep trained but purely from an emotional support angle I needed DH for those first few days when listening to her crying (even just for a few mins) was breaking my heart! I think the golden rule for sleep training is that you have to be super consistent, and DH and I kept each other on the straight and narrow when we were tempted to jack it in in the first couple of days.

FWIW I’m very glad we did it, we’ve had over a year now of decent sleep and while I don’t think anything is a magic spell when it comes to babies, after she cracked putting herself to sleep her sleep quality was much better and we got a sunnier little girl during the day (she was a bit of a grump for the first few months bless her!) I’m expecting DC2 any day now and while I am praying for a fabled ‘will nap anywhere’ kid, it’s a great reassurance to know that even if he’s another Velcro baby, we just need to power through a few months of bad sleep before we sleep train if it proves necessary. I think it’s going to stop me feeling the desperation of ‘omg I’m never going to sleep again’ on the bad days/nights ☺️

Ah, we have quite a late bedtime (around 8:45pm) so there's a good bit of time between dinner and bottle. You might need to do dinner a bit earlier maybe to get a good milk feed in before bed.

Thank you all for your advice and tips!! @shivawn we aim to get bubba to bed by 8pm, I think we'll aim to feed him dinner before 6 and then do the routine . @ShadowPuppets that is reassuring indeed! I am feeling much better during the day but in the middle of the night it is hard 😫wish me luck!

Hi OP - you’ve had some helpful responses already but I am adding in case there is anything useful in my experience. I did what was for me a more ‘humane’ version of CC - crossing it with Pick Up Put Down, so basically going in and picking baby up and soothing him completely in my arms at each check in, until he was totally calm, before returning him to the cot. Even if he then wailed extra loudly as soon as he hit the mattress. This way I was reassuring him that I would always meet his needs completely whilst also giving him space to learn the skill of falling asleep independently. It worked within 2 nights for us and naps automatically worked because the conditions were the same (pitch black, white noise, sleep sack, comforter, sleepy phrase). Babe was 6 months (and EBF) when I did this and like PP I am expecting my second any day now and the knowledge that I can ‘fix’ sleep is very empowering.

what was your bedtime routine, and if your baby fell to sleep on the boob/bottle, did you wake him up before putting down in the cot.
Bath/teeth/pjs/bf/sleeping bag/song/sleep phrase. I kept bf as the last ‘major’ component of our routine (still is at 22mo), but zipped him into the sleepy sack directly after the feed which usually woke him up if he fell asleep.

did you do cc for both nights and naps, and if yes, did you basically not go to baby groups/ out because of the nap times?
lockdown #1 baby but yes to this day if a group falls between 1 and 3pm I do not attend. Sleep is more important for me but I respect those who might do things differently.

did you have the exact same routine during bedtime and naps?

yes, consistency is vitally important!

how did you wean off the feed to sleep association?
I roused him after the feed if he fell asleep before putting him down. Once baby can put themselves to sleep, they will generally be able to resettle themselves between sleep cycles provided the conditions are the same as when they first fell asleep. This applies to adults too! The learning to fall asleep in the first place is the key skill which unlocks everything else. So if baby goes down without the boob in his mouth at the start of sleep, he won’t be looking for it after 40 mins (day sleep cycle) or 90 mins-2h (night sleep cycle).

Hi @LabradorFiasco thank you! Dc last woke up from his nap at half 2 today :( i just tried to put him, he cried upon landing on his cot ( I did bath, pj, story and boob). I probably should have done boob earlier but because of his last nap time, his dinner ended at 6! His nap timings are still not the same each day which makes it difficult to target a specific bedtime time!

Also @LabradorFiasco he doesnt have a comforted at the moment, I have been thinking of introducing but was thinking the guidance says no lovey till 1?

Hi,
I got my DS self settling when he was about 6mo. I did it in a few stages.

From about 4.5mo I started introducing a comforter all the time. Nappy changes, in the pram, when feeding etc.

At the same time I started habit stacking to stop the feed to sleep association. I would feed him to sleep whilst patting his bottom and shushing, then I'd gradually unlatch him just as his eyes were going, then slightly earlier so he would feed and I'd finish him off by shush patting. I was then eventually able to put him in the cot awake and shush pat him to sleep with him holding his comforter.
The last stage was to then leave him on his own. I did controlled crying in 2-3 min bursts. I think the first time I did it was first nap of the day (probably best to do it when they're not over tired). He actually went down without much trouble the first time, I was really surprised. I think I only went in and out twice. I fed him to calm him down then put him back with the comforter. (Feeding to comfort them was only reccommended up to 6mo in the little ones guide I used).
Over the next couple of days there were varying degrees of crying when I put him down but I don't remember it lasting half an hr or anything. Was no more than going in and out a few times.
He still woke up in the night for feeds which I still continued with but they were definitely less than before. If his dad put him to bed sometimes he would sleep till 3am!
Naps were far longer, I was actually able to get stuff done and wasn't sitting there for half an hr trying to get him to sleep 🥳
Good luck xx

We sort of sleep trained my DD (not following any particular method) at about 10 months and it did work, through pure desperation - don't shoot me because it took about 3 nights and she has been a fab sleeper ever since (she is now 11). She had been sleeping fairly well but then started waking to the point it got ridiculous, we were both back at work full time, there was no reason for her to be awake she was just AWAKE, wanting to get up and play at 2am or whatever!

She wasn't breast fed which will probably make a difference. Essentially she was bathed, fed, cuddled, and put to sleep in a travel cot in the lounge where we shut the door so we couldn't hear her as loudly (we lived in a flat at the time). She had a bottle of milk in bed with her. It sounds awful and it makes me cringe but we left her to it, she didn't die and she did learn to self soothe. I did go in a few times, zero eye contact and zero talking, and tuck her back in but that was it. After 3 nights she slept through pretty much and has always been wonderful since.

Hi @nurserychoices - bless you, I remember feeling so stressed out about timings etc. Sleep deprivation makes it all worse too. What sort of nap timings do you aim for?
If it helps, at 9mo we were doing:

Up: 07:30
Nap 1: 10:30 - 10:50
Nap 2: 13:00 - 15:00
Bed: 19:30

Obviously every baby is different! I used my background in the anthropology of sleep to work out a schedule which made the most of the human circadian rhythm and that’s what worked for us. He still does 13:00-15:00 as a nap now at 22mo.

Re. Comforter: appreciate that the guidance is quite terrifying. We practised lifting things off our face during awake time, moving head away from objects etc as part of play. I was confident that he could move his elephant away from his face if needed and we also have a monitor to watch him. If you were really cautious, you could put a knot in a muslin (so very breathable), stick that in your bra for a day/night so it smells of you and then introduce that as a comforter. It was essential for us, and a good example of habit stacking as PP mentions. Lyndsey Hookway writes useful stuff on habit stacking btw, in case you’re interested :)

@LabradorFiasco thank you! on nap times, i basically try morning nap about 1.5 hours to 2 hours after wake up, afternoon nap after 3- 3.5 hours afterwards, and evening nap around 3 hours after too. his wake up times are not consistent which is why i don't have fixed timings. at one point, he would wake up around 6.30 so morning nap would be at 8ish (on me) for about half an hour, then 11.30am for about 1 hour, then another at 3 pm or so for an hour. but it's been all over the place the past few weeks.

@Geranium1984 @LabradorFiasco I have not heard about habit stacking! I will read up on it -the shuh pat and feeding sounds like something i can do. I will also do practise playing with a comforter, i have been thinking it will help the transition to nursery in a few months.

@WomanAnon no worries, wouldn't shoot you or judge at all! every parent and baby is different, we do whatever we can to the best of our ability! i'm reassured to hear when CC works!

Last night, he cried and i went in at 3, 5 and 7 min intervals. he was still crying pretty inconsolably so i ended up feeding him (i know, i know) and then slept on me, put him and down and he slept till 4! (OMG indeed). no idea if it's because of the crying, him being too tired or other reasons. gave good feed at 4. slept back ok but woke up 15 mins later, fed him again and he is still sleeping now!

We did it with both of ours at around 1. Only took a couple of nights and then naps followed pretty quickly, both of mine were crap nappers until they dropped to one nap. They were both FF so had bottle & story, teeth and then put down. They had both previously been cuddled to sleep.

I would say it hasn't been a magic bullet for my rubbish sleeper - he would still be up in the night regularly but it did mean he'd get a decent first stretch, often going till 2/3am before waking rather than 11pm plus not having to cuddle for hours means we've got our evening back. We had to sleep train him again when he went into a bed.

At 9 months old, you could consider dropping to 2 naps once you have nights sorted? You know best what your child needs but your first wake window seems short for that age. I'd try wake windows of 3/3/4 if you do decide to go for it. My son is 7 months and we've just moved to 2 naps. His nap times are more predictable now and his nights have gotten a little longer too.

OMG 4am! You must feel like a new woman, though I bet you were still waking up 😅
Let's hope for the same again tonight!!

Forgot to say I could never get my boy to self settle for the third nap. But once the naps lengthen you'll be able to drop down to two and as PP said you'll get in a more predictable routine and be able to do your day by the clock timing rather than wake windows.

Despite all the routines in books my boy usually did a long nap in the morning to begin with. So I had morning nap at 1.5hrs and tried for another 1.5hrs at 1pm. Then as he got older I'd reduce the morning one down and the lunch nap lengthened to 2hrs.

I did CC with my 9 month old about a month ago, we had Co-slept, well not only co-slept but mostly breastsleeping since birth. He was waking 3-4x for a feed and would regularly wake because he wasn’t latched. I’d had enough basically!

I downloaded the Just Chill Mamma baby sleep programme and I can’t recommend it enough. It was the daily routine that helped me. Everything else I knew.

My baby wakes as soon as he’s unlatched so I wake him by putting him down in the cot.

Follow a shortened version of the nighttime routine at nap times. Whatever settling method you chose you have to stick with it. It’s all about consistency. You confuse things if you deviate.

i made an effort for the first 5 days to be home for naps and it’s still my preference but with a toddler too sometimes we’re out. I still put him down for a nap in his pushchair and stick to nap times though.

It’s fine to feed still - you quickly learn what is a genuine “I need you” cry and what is a whinge. My 9m old now mostly sleeps through but I do still feed him sometimes.

@Geranium1984 haha definitely! I woke up at half 2 too! I really hope it will happen again tonight but the previous nap ended at half 1 and I'm trying to get him to nap for just a bit to bridge the gap and am failing miserably :(

@HotDogKetchup thank you, I did give a feed at 4 but then he woke up again 15 mins later ,at which point I gave another feed.

Honestly OP I recognise and resonate with so much of what you say about timings and starting a method with good intentions and then caving and feeding to sleep. I did that for months, even though I knew logically that it was confusing him and made things worse for me in the long run. I think with CC-based methods it is really
only worth starting if you have nerves of steel and the resolve to be 100% consistent. For me, that only happened when I reached rock bottom in terms of sleep deprivation. DH also took over the check-in/soothing parts after 30 mins or so because it was too stressful for me and I suspect DS could smell the milk and it drove him slightly bananas.

With waking for feeds, once baby had the ability to fall asleep himself, I would feed him only at first wake (usually around 2am). He might weaned himself at about 8 months - just stopped waking and asking. On the rare occasion that he woke subsequently and didn’t go back to sleep after 15 mins, I would do the CC process. That only happened maybe twice though!

In terms of timing, if baby woke early from a nap I would bring bedtime forward rather than try a bridging nap. After a certain age the third nap seems like more trouble than it’s worth.

You sound like such a caring mum, I’m sure you will crack it 😀