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Original poster

PR & residency

37 replies

Pumpkinpie11 · 03/04/2014 22:17

I was just wondering how much say PR gives a father?
I know they need to have a say in important education & medical decisions but to what degree should involvement be?
I am in the process of arguing with school because this week they decided without consultation with me to arrange for the children to go to their dad. This was done because the teacher heard I had an argument with one of them and felt they should go to their dad .
I have residency and he has contact.
The school claim they can let their dad have them because he has PR and basically feel they can do as they wish with either parent.
I think that as we have a court order stating I have residency this shouldn't happen.
The school are sticking to their guns and seem to be amazed that I was upset, panicked and phoned the police when my children failed to come home from school.
Are the school really right?

OP posts:
3xcookedchips · 03/04/2014 22:58

There's probably more to this than just an 'argument'.

How old are the kids?

The school.is not an officer of the court and are not there to enforce court orders - that is fact.

What are the circumstances they released the kids to the father and given they are the father why should you be consulted?

Your problem is with their father who choose not to let you know they were with him.

Joules68 · 03/04/2014 23:03

Must be more to this op?

Original poster
Pumpkinpie11 · 03/04/2014 23:15

Strange but true there is no more to this!!
My 10 year old told the teacher we had a row (as parents and children often do) and the teacher who is also deputy head phoned my ex and arranged for the DC to go to him.

A month ago I had phoned the head and explained the children were not to be released to their dad as police and social services needed to conduct an investigation before they had contact again. He informed me that if they wanted to they could as he has equal rights to me.

This week the morning after the school did this I had a massive row with the teacher who is absolutely certain that he was right in his actions and just 'forgot' to leave me a voicemail telling what was happening. He told me he had informed SS and would contact the police to tell them he was in the right.
I spoke to SW immediately afterwards and she said she had just picked up a message from the school (the following day). She stated the school acted improperly and agreed with the police that the school should not have done it.

There is no shared residency order. I have full residency.
The problem is that my ex was very pally with the school and told them I have MH issues - not true as otherwise I would not have the children.

I don't believe in slagging him off so have never tried to justify myself to the school.

Are a school, as an educational establishment right in feeling PR means both parents have equal rights? I understand he is entitled to school reports, consultation on important matters but I am certain they acted improperly
On this occasion.

I would not report the school despite feeling I have grounds for a formal complaint but I do think the teacher in question does owe me an apology!

OP posts:
Original poster
Pumpkinpie11 · 03/04/2014 23:16

Incidentally the police took immediate action and the children were returned to me.

OP posts:
3xcookedchips · 03/04/2014 23:21

What does the contact schedule for current order say?

Joules68 · 03/04/2014 23:27

What are the police/ss investigating? Who says they 'needed' to conduct an investigation? If they did then school would be involved....

Original poster
Pumpkinpie11 · 03/04/2014 23:39

Contact order gives 2 weekends a month fri-sun. No midweek or school pick ups.

The police handed investigation to SS after initial emergency investigation following allegations the children made against their father.
SS have been very slow (advising me not to make the children go for contact) and had only done the proper investigation and interview with the children last week. The SW had left a message for the school to contact them. Hence school having the SW mobile number to leave the voicemail saying the DC's had been given to dad.
Social services have been out again this week and will be putting dad on a JAFF and a parenting course to try and improve his behaviour.
I guess due to SS being so delayed in backing up what I told the school weeks ago they may have felt I was making it up or something equally obscure.
I just can't understand how PR gives somebody the right to just have the children if the school decide when the court order clearly specifies when he can have them.

OP posts:
3xcookedchips · 03/04/2014 23:51

You're drip feeding and of course there's more to it...your post is concerning the school, see my first post.

Are you aware what the term residency means?

DontCareAboutYourShoes · 04/04/2014 00:02

Rocking in just to say that this is inaccurate:
The problem is that my ex was very pally with the school and told them I have MH issues - not true as otherwise I would not have the children.

Many parents with MH issues have children and are the resident parent.

Original poster
Pumpkinpie11 · 04/04/2014 00:05

The 'argument' was a row with my 10 year old before school. It was only unusual in the fact that we very rarely row. We raised our voices and I told her off for telling me to "shut up". She was upset in school and told her teacher.

I thought that residency meant the children live here and only see their dad for contact as specified in the court order. I was confused this week when the SW said it gives me more PR than dad as I didn't think you had more or less than one another.

That is thing I need to clarify. Are PR & residency different and how?

I was advised to get a residency order by the police to stop their dad snatching the (much) younger pre school child as they told me if I had residency they could return the children to me. Prior to having the order all the police could do were welfare checks, have strong words. (Which in all fairness always did the trick) and demand a report to SS.

The school were never informed of past events as I felt it would not be fair to sound like I was slagging their dad off.

OP posts:
Original poster
Pumpkinpie11 · 04/04/2014 00:07

Sorry dontcareaboutyprshoes, you're right and I was wrong to say that.
I didn't mean to offend anyone as I'm aware MH is an enormous spectrum.
What I meant was that CAFCASS found nothing and I felt this influenced the decision the children would remain with me.

OP posts:
DontCareAboutYourShoes · 04/04/2014 01:02

No worries about apologising! I was just worried someone with MH issues who didn't know would stumble across it and think shiiiiit that's me buggered so thought I'd mention it :)

STIDW · 04/04/2014 07:42

This is an issue for the family courts to determine rather than the school, social services or the police. PR means both parents have equal responsibilities and rights and the court would need to make a prohibited steps order to regulate PR to prevent a parent from collecting a child from school.

balia · 04/04/2014 10:34

Did the school force the child to go to dad's against their will?

Or did the child ask to go to Dad? (I'm not sure the school would be allowed to prevent the parent collecting the child if that's the case?)

giantpurplepeopleeater · 04/04/2014 10:53

School are in the wrong.

They should be following the court order - they should have a copy and know on which days the children are to be returned to whom.

3xcookedchips · 04/04/2014 11:16

The school are not in the wrong! They're purpose is NOT to enforce orders or get in the middle of a conflict of two parents making.

Original poster
Pumpkinpie11 · 04/04/2014 11:29

The children were happy to go.
My main concern was that nobody told me and an apology for the distres at least would be nice!!

I fail to see the point in a court order unless it is stuck to, not only the parents but also the school!

Does residency give the RP any addition rights over NRP?

OP posts:
nomoretether · 04/04/2014 11:34

The only advantage that I know of is that a parent with a residence order can take the child out of England and Wales for upto 28 days without the permission of anyone else who has PR.

CAFCASS aren't qualified to assess your mental health.

The teacher heard you had an argument with them? Was your child distressed? I can't see why they would call the dad unless there was some real concern tbh.

anklebitersmum · 04/04/2014 11:40

You are both equal parents if you both have PR.

The residency order is so that the courts recognise that they live with you, not so you can dictate when and how their Dad is allowed to see them. Contact is usually issued from court as a minimum not an absolute and parents are expected to do what's in the child's best interests regardless of their own agendas.

The school should have let you know that your DC weren't coming home to you, especially if they had organised for their Dad to collect them. Quite frankly their Dad had a responsibility to let you know once he'd picked them up too.

Seems to me there's a dodgy undercurrent here.

STIDW · 04/04/2014 11:56

The legal position is that a Residence Order just determines where a child lives. Parental Responsibility gives both parents equal responsibility and rights to carry out those responsibilities. That means unless there a Prohibited Steps Order preventing someone with PR from collecting a child ultimately a school has the discretion to release a child to that person if it is believed at the time to be in the child's best interests.

If social services have concerns about the children's welfare rather than trying to beat the school over the head with a stick the correct thing would be to apply to court for a Prohibited Steps Order to prevent the children from being taken from school.

Joules68 · 04/04/2014 11:57

Isn't the contact order set out to say the minimum times dad can have them

If you op were in an accident then he would have them more. It's not only the times given in the order he can have them

starlight1234 · 04/04/2014 13:00

I have a very different situation..But spoke to head Exh has PR..I was told that they could notlegally stop Ex taking DS unless he was distressed but would contact me and delay him taking DS for me to arrive..

I would also wonder what your DD said to the teacher....

Original poster
Pumpkinpie11 · 04/04/2014 13:18

She was upset because I told her off and we shouted which is not normal for us.
CAFCASS did not 'assess' my mental health but listened to his accusations, looked at police and SS reports and decided he should have them less.

The court order just specifies very exact arrangements and has a sentence at the end saying 'and any other agreed contact'.

So was the advice I had telling me to get residency wrong? Should I have got a PSO simply stating he can't take them unless I agree?

I am still totally miffed about why the school did this. I know their dad should have told me but what he does and what he should do are rather different!

He's not a bad dad, the problems are just that he can't cope with them which has an impact on the care they get from him.

OP posts:
starlight1234 · 04/04/2014 13:47

THe sentence at the end means any contact you both agree to not determined by the school...

I think if it was a small argument and nothing else to this the school have very much overreacted...

I would be furious if I wasn't allowed to take my child home because we argued..I have left my DS on the playground and told teacher I am furious with him ...I also expected to come at school time and collect him...

I would be arranging a meeting with the head to determine if there is something they are not saying and to ensure this doesn't happen again....

Lots of 2 parents families have arguments with their kids what do they do with them?

3xcookedchips · 04/04/2014 13:48

All very confusing - the children made allegations against their father and SS involvement followed.

You then say that the children were happy to leave school with their father.

CAFCASS are still involved? Is there to be another review hearing at court or has there been a final order. Did CAFCASS provide a S7 report in the last hearing recommending a reduction in contact? Did they just rely on the SS report or meet with dad with the kids?

He's not a bad dad, but there are welfare concerns?

You need to ask the court to vary the level of contact and cannot do that unilaterally in the advice SW or the police.

Again, the school haven't done anything wrong here - you might not agree with what they did.

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