PR & residency

[Pumpkinpie11]

I was just wondering how much say PR gives a father?
I know they need to have a say in important education & medical decisions but to what degree should involvement be?
I am in the process of arguing with school because this week they decided without consultation with me to arrange for the children to go to their dad. This was done because the teacher heard I had an argument with one of them and felt they should go to their dad .
I have residency and he has contact.
The school claim they can let their dad have them because he has PR and basically feel they can do as they wish with either parent.
I think that as we have a court order stating I have residency this shouldn't happen.
The school are sticking to their guns and seem to be amazed that I was upset, panicked and phoned the police when my children failed to come home from school.
Are the school really right?

Listen to what SS have said. School have acted innapropriately. I have residency and Ex has EOW contact, holiday contact and 'any other contact as can be AGREED between the parties'

The key word is AGREED. It is ridiculous to suggest that your Ex could text you any day to say 'I'm having the kids later' You reply that's not possible because they have a birthday party. So he just goes and collects them from scho anyway ?

I find it very odd that the school called dad and said come and get your children because they've had an argument with Mum.. and there is no more to it than that.

What if the parents were together? They wouldn't call dad and say "I think you should do pick up today your DS had a row with his mum this morning"

Sounds to me like your DD said more about the argument than what is written here. And, if so, there will be a report somewhere to document this.

Also, it seems from your posts that the school weren't aware of the problems you have had with their Dad because you didn't want to be seen to be slagging him off. What are your concerns about his parenting?

To be honest, I feel the blame lies at his door for not telling you he had the children, and also a bit at your DD's door as at 10 she should realise not to exaggerate arguments or go home with Dad when you are expecting her home. My DD would get a bollocking for this. Not because she;d gone home with Dad, but because she deviated from the plan that she would walk home and as a result I was incredibly worried about her. It's not very responsible behaviour.

In answer to your question, at our school we have a form to fill in when the child registers there to ask who the main carers are and if there are any other people who would regularly collect the children. If someone is listed on there, no one asks if they have PR, they just hand them over.

For example, I am on there and DDs dad is on there (They have no idea if he has PR or not) and his wife and my husband are also on there. Neither has PR but if they turn up to collect DD no questions are asked.

Everything had been running smoothly until a few weeks ago. The accusations were not related to physical abuse but were taken on board because what the children were saying raised concerns about how they are cared for by their dad. He has fun with them but seems to have problems looking after them.

He simply can't cope with all the children. He means the best but seems to have a blur between the adult/child relationship. I'm not fully aware of what the children told SS & police as the discussions were held without me being in the room. I have not pressurised the children into telling me what was said.
I'm not sure if their comments will be included in the report. All I know is that SS feel there is a need for support and monitoring via something called a JAFF.
This week when they didn't come home & the police went over the officer said he felt my DD was being manipulative. I understand that playing parents off against each other happens but I feel if this was a factor the school should have considered it.

CAFCASS didn't need to be involved anymore as I thought everything was finalised and would be OK. Obviously I was wrong and the level of contact he has now may be too much for him. SS have told me the courts won't consider any applications from either of us for amendments until their reports are finished and that I should not force the children to go against their will. I was 'forcing' them before because I wanted to comply with the court.

My original question though was related to PR & residency and I'm getting the feeling that I was badly advised on what type of court order to get.
I am still amazed schools can release children to anyone with PR. What happens in cases of DV then? I'm not in that situation but it seems somehow the system for schools could put children at risk.

PR is very difficult for schools.
Legally they are obliged to hand over the child to anyone with PR.
Purely as an example, I divorced over 10 years ago. Ds was young and it was dv. By the time ds started school we were still in the middle of court cases, reports etc.
One teacher decided that they 'knew' my ex h. My ds was released to exh on a day the interim contact order didn't have written on it by this teacher. The order wasn't available to staff and turned out that the head teacher hadn't communicated any information to staff.
I arrived to collect ds to find he had been collected 3 hours earlier. 2 days later my ex h was persuaded by police to return ds.
Its impossible for schools to get involved,even when there are court orders there will be a day where there are judgements made in error or with insufficient information.
Residence orders don't give 'more' PR they give a legal definition of where a child lives and are normally suggested if either parent starts to show reoccurring signs of not accepting where a child resides or not returning a child, but can't actually stop it happening.
In your case it sounds like ss have become rather muddled and behind in their handling of your case and in doing so breached the contact order.
For the school not to hand over your children to anyone with PR they would need a Prohibited steps order specifically stating this.

If there was proven DV against the children then this should be dealt with at court and the order would reflect that if a parent is to be prevented from seeing the kids or picking the kids up from school. That's when the school would be made aware of the order.

Residency does not necessarily trump PR and is not intended as a tool to wield power and control over the other parent. Some parents like to think it is.

If the kids aren't made available for contact then the other parent can apply for enforcement.

Did SS give you and indication when the reports would be ready? There's nothing stopping you making an application now as its unlikely you'll get a date this side of 6 weeks+.

Otherwise, wait for the reports and if there is serious concerns make an emergency application.

All sounds very messy.

In my very limited experience of schools, they don;t ask who has PR.. they ask whoever registers the child at the school who will be picking them up, then if someone comes who isn't on that record, they won't release them.

If dad is on that list, there's your problem. If he isn't, then he would have had to turn up with their birth certificates or other proof of PR.

if the kids are able to go EOW for overnights then it would be pretty illogical to assume they therefore cannot go during the week. maybe your DD said something, who knows.

to a teacher etc - knowing the children go overnight EOW for contact, then assumption would be it is ok for them to go also during the week. they don't know the ins and outs of court order - have you passed them a copy of the court order?

what support are you and DC getting eg with family therapist?

it seems that DD at 10 is confused and yes maybe playing you off against dad. you might find it useful to use a trained family therapist to get you talking about all the issues together, if you have not done so already.

I found it really useful with dd. they used various tools to get DD to talk about the family situation and what was going on with dad etc.

has contact been stopped following the allegations? or is it continuing on EOW basis?

Without going into too much detail who advised you to get a Residence Order and why? It wasn't necessarily wrong, but there are a lot of myths about what a Residence Order does or doesn't do. For example a Residence Order doesn't necessarily prevent a parent keeping a child after contact. The police only have limited powers and can only talk to the other parent to persuade them to return the child, unless there is reason to believe the child is at immediate risk of harm. Otherwise even with a Residence Order it is necessary to refer the matter back to the court where the judge can make a Recovery Order, then the court tipstaff can call on the police to assist.

A Prohibited Steps Order to prevent a child being collected from school would only be appropriate if there was evidence of harm or as a temporary measure whilst investigations are carried out, just in case. Having said that if social services are happy for contact EOW to continue whilst they carry out their investigation it's difficult to see how the child could be deemed at risk. It's preferable that social services investigate and then work with parents to put measures in place to address any problems rather than going to court which can cause a lot of resentment and resistance.

Having said that social services can investigate, advise and report but they aren't God or experts when it comes to the law. It's of little consequence that social services think the school was being inappropriate. Ultimately it is a judge who independently makes the decisions after listening to both sides of the story and evidence from school, social services etc. A solicitor is the best person to advise on the law.

Social services' advice re contact was that it stopped for one but felt that if they wanted to see their dad I shouldn't stop them. They are all (bar my 10yr old) currently refusing to go.

A couple of months ago I phoned a therapist about working with my DD. She quite rightly felt that we should attend as a unit (DD & both parents) but as ex doesn't believe there is a problem & wouldn't go the therapist felt going ahead was pointless. I will ask SW about any services they may offer.

I have not been told how long the report will take but things did move forward on Friday. The SW has got dad to agree to a schedule of expectations. This is huge progress and he will be monitored to ensure he adheres to it. This means I can sit down with the children and talk through how things should improve because dad has agreed to change the way he cares for them. We haven't had it yet but my 11 YO already said 'yeah right!'. I really want contact to be maintained, not only so they have their dad but because I'm so shattered being on my own with 6 of them all the time. Hopefully he'll change things now even if he won 't acknowledge he's in the wrong.

It was the police who told me to get a residency order on the occasion my 3 yo was 'snatched', Literally grabbed from the front door.

On Friday the SW also said she will be speaking to the school to inform them that the order excludes any school pick ups. Maybe then I'll get an apology for the distress this all caused!

Why don't you give these people a call

www.childrenslegalcentre.com/

It's really not a great idea to be taking advice about stuff like this from randoms on the Internet many of whom may have their own agenda