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Legal matters

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Original poster

50/50 childcare share between parents and countries?!

27 replies

shypuffin · 06/12/2013 14:02

Hi, I'm in a pretty difficult situation. I stupidly moved to rural France with my partner and 4 month old twin babies (born in the UK) 2 years ago but it's just not working out for me. My partner and I argue all the time and have decided we want different things out of life. He wants to stay here long-term but I feel totally isolated and want to return to the UK where I have a support network and means of income.

After an horrendous 6 months we've agreed we need to split up but he is insisting on 50/50 custody and since it's illegal to take children out of their country of residence without both parents' permission I feel I have to agree to that. The twins have just turned 2 so this would mean they live with him for one month in France and then me for the next month in the UK but I just don't know how that would work from a financial/logitical or emotional point of view. When I approached a specialist law firm in France they told me that to get legal permission to return to the UK with my kids permanently would cost about 15000 euros and I would only have a 50% chance of winning (and that was when I was breastfeeding!)

Do I have any other options?

OP posts:

greenfolder · 06/12/2013 15:26

Have you consulted uk lawyers? I assume they have uk nationality. Understand about the parental permission but how is that going to work? Especially when they start school?

iheartdusty · 06/12/2013 15:36

Of all the solutions you might have to consider, 50/50 month on/ month off sounds potentially very damaging indeed. I saw some specialist advice in a situation like this which said the child would suffer profound attachment disorder - they would be bonding with one person for a month, then those bonds would be broken,and they would try to bond with the other. They could suffer permanent psychological/emotional harm.

sorry I can't help about French law.

kirsty75005 · 06/12/2013 15:45

I don't know about the legal situation either sorry but I agree that one month in one country and one month in another sounds very difficult (both from a practical point of view and emotionally for the kids). The young children I know who have transferred from one country to the other have generally taken at least a couple of months to settle down.

Is transferring to a largeish town in France (with an expat community and reasonable transport links to the UK) a possibility if after legal advice you really can't return to the UK ?

ElenorRigby · 06/12/2013 15:45

"The twins have just turned 2 so this would mean they live with him for one month in France and then me for the next month in the UK"

A French court would allow that !?

Hopefully one of MN's solicitors will along soon to help you.

Sorry you are going through such a tough time.

SolomanDaisy · 06/12/2013 15:53

I'm not suggesting this is a good idea, it is a terrible one, but theoretically what would happen if you just took them back to Britain? Are you all British?

NomDeClavier · 06/12/2013 15:55

50/50 betwern countries sounds horrendous and will become completely impossible from next September when they go to school. Surely he can see that? Would you accept him having all school holidays?

France is their place of residence so any custody arrangements will give priority to them remaining in the country but not necessarily with your parter or even locally to him if you wanted to move elsewhere, although French courts do favour joint custody as a rule. The other complicating factor is that not being married you have no way to argue that your first 'regime maritale' means your case shouldn't be heard in France.

I can understand that you want to return to the UK though, but it is unlikely to be deemed in the best interests if the children by a court to go with you.

Can I suggest you also pop this in Living Overseas? There may be people there with more experience.

NomDeClavier · 06/12/2013 15:57

Don't take the children back to the UK without consent, even for a holiday, and don't overstay if you do take them with consent bre. The French courts will view that as parental abduction and request their return under the Hague Convention which would seriously harm your case in a French court.

Original poster

shypuffin · 06/12/2013 15:58

UK law doesn't apply as we are resident in France. I don't know what a French court would allow - I want to stay well away as from what I've heard they would force me to stay in France and I can't afford to as I don't have income here, even if I wanted to.

My hope is that if they are living in the UK for at least 50% of the time for long enough I can apply to UK courts to keep them there permanently. I'm feeling so isolated and depressed and that can't be good for the children either.

OP posts:

SolomanDaisy · 06/12/2013 16:05

That is just shit. I'm on a large facebook group for foreign mothers in the country I live in and there have been discussions on there about this sort of thing, with people recommending lawyers and approaches. Is there something like that for France?

Are you currently a SAHM and your DH works? How would he care for the children in his months?

NomDeClavier · 06/12/2013 16:09

Does your relationship have any legal status in France? Are you pacsed, for example?

Will their father agree to the 50/50 arrangement?

By my count they've spent 16+ months in France if they're now 2. To argue their habitual residence as the UK woth extended holidays to see their father you'd need to keep it up for at least that length of time, and even then you're scuppered if he brings proceedings in France which he can do as soon as you officially separate. You really need specialist advice. Are you near somewhere with anglophone lawyers?

Original poster

shypuffin · 06/12/2013 16:30

We are not married or pacsed. It was him that suggested the 50/50 arrangement as an alternative to me having to stay in France when I'm so miserable here. We both work from home and have a live-in au pair. He runs his own business and I do contracting work for a UK company 4 days a week but this could end at any time.

We live half way up a mountain in the middle of nowhere - an hour and a half to the nearest city with lawyers but neither of us want to get lawyers involved. He's warned me that if I try that he will go for full custody and he has way more money to pay for legal help than me.

OP posts:

NomDeClavier · 06/12/2013 16:35

He sounds a real charmer Is there anything that would make living in France bearable for you if you separated?

How would he work childcare out if you went home? Surely he wouldn't keep the AP?

Original poster

shypuffin · 06/12/2013 16:58

It would be relatively easy for him as pre-school is free for 2 year olds in France and he would consider keeping an au pair, yes. Not sure how I would afford childcare in the UK though as I guess I would have to pay 100% even though using only half.

Staying in France seems ridiculous when the reason we're splitting up is because I am so unhappy here. I suppose I could get an English teaching job or something in the nearest city but I wouldn't be able to afford a car to visit the kids and I wouldn't want to move them into a small flat when they're used to living in a lovely big house in the country.

The irony is that he spent the first half of my pregnancy trying to persuade me to have an abortion and I was so scared of being a single mum I agreed to his idea of moving to France without thinking it through at all.

OP posts:

SolomanDaisy · 06/12/2013 17:08

Does he actually want to care for the children he wanted to abort or is it a way of controlling/punishing you? Because if he's going to get bored of the responsibility then maybe it is worth staying in France for a little while and waiting for that to happen.

im22 · 06/12/2013 17:18

I'm sorry but "Does he actually want to care for the children he wanted to abort or is it a way of controlling/punishing you?" is a disgusting comment. Lots of women/parents consider abortion, it doesn't mean they automatically don't love their children when they're born.

As to the OP's question, you are correct that the children's habitual home is France and you would not be able to remove the children to the UK without both parents consent/French court order without it being considered abduction. As the children are going to be going to school soon, and you are terribly unhappy in France, wouldn't moving back to the UK and having the children for holiday time not make the most sense? (Although obviously if you don't wish to be away from them for so long then I don't see any other way than to stay in France)

I hope everything turns out OK for you OP

NomDeClavier · 06/12/2013 17:21

But you need to know that if the kids are going to be put into maternelle (which is what I assume you mean by free pre-school) there's no way you'll be able to argue their place of residence is the UK. Maternelle for all intents and purposes counts as inscription scolaire, and they won't accept 1 month on 1 month off either, although that I suppose is his problem. I asked about taking DS out of school during term times and they were very frowny with me, and this is TPS in an école privé, which is essentially garderie plus! Are they already going? Or are they at crèche/garderie?

Sorry this all sounds very negative but you really need to think through the implications if he decides to play hardball at a later date and get lawyers involved. You also need to think long term about how this arrangement will work and stack the odds towards resudce in the UK as much as possible, which means avoiding residence in France (which is going to be difficult).

I agree with sol that he may be using this as a way to control you and if you did have a 50:50 arrangement but you stayed in France separated from him he might tire of it.

ElenorRigby · 07/12/2013 06:11

Anglo French Specialist Family Law Service in London.

If you google french divorce lawyers in london you will find more.
HTH

RedHelenB · 07/12/2013 08:19

It seems as though the best thing would be for you to move to a larger town/city near enough to be able to do 50/50. It may well be that he too gets bored of his mountain & wishes to move. A lot can change & he may be more amenable for you to move back to England & he sees the children in the holidays although I am sure the children would prefer to have you both in their lives for as much of the time as possible.

babybarrister · 07/12/2013 11:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster

shypuffin · 07/12/2013 12:34

If I were to bring proceedings in France it seems clear that they would rule the children should stay in France so it wouldn't do me any favours. I either have to move to the nearest city (which is over an hour away) with little income or agree to the 50/50 split. My partner won't be moving back to the UK any time soon as he's renovating an old farmhouse here which he wouldn't be able to sell for a long time even if he wanted to. For childcare he would use the local creche or get a live in nanny. I feel like I am on the verge of losing my kids - I just don't know what to do.

OP posts:

RedHelenB · 07/12/2013 15:45

I think you do need to get some legal advice asap. Have you any relatives that could give you any money for this purpose?

justwondering72 · 09/12/2013 06:31

I'm in France, but have no advice. there is a parents in France fb closed group that you can request to join, no idea if that would help you with more local advice. not as anonymous as mn I guess.

what a horrible situation fir you.

SavoyCabbage · 09/12/2013 06:47

I too live overseas and I know women in a similar position to you. I know someone who is trapped here forever if she wants to see her dc. And she lost custody so she sees them only every other weekend.

I think I would focus on the long term goal of getting the hell out of there. I would move out and let him have his 50/50 arrangement. I would see if he could manage running his own life, working, and looking after twin girls. I would not be available to help him out during his time. And I would see how it went whilst sucking it up myself for another year.

In the meantime get legal advice and definitely do not say that you want to take them to the uk because you think its ether for them etc. If France is anything like where I am, that doesn't go down to well.

SavoyCabbage · 09/12/2013 06:49

And take them to the uk for holidays whenever you can. Keep up their relationships with there British families, and document it.

Celebrate uk holidays and traditions. And take photos.

Original poster

shypuffin · 10/12/2013 11:52

Thanks - you completely understand my fears. I don't want to be trapped here forever for want of taking the right action now. I can't afford to stay in France and do the 50/50 split as I don't have a reliable income here. Does anyone know how long I would have to keep up the 50/50 split if I went back to the UK, in order to argue their country of residence is the UK?

OP posts:

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