ERA EMMA ALICE testing thread 7

[VenusStarr]

Hi all. We're on our 7th thread! Really hoping for some more positive news in the coming months.

@Gardenlady543 what grade is it?

@VenusStarr that's good!
@Gardenlady543 I rang embryologist and other 3 were very fragmented and the blast we couldn't use had excluded 50% if itself likely because the cells were abnormal so it wouldn't recover with so little material. He did say it was a very good quality blast and I feel a little better as he said we would love to freeze every embryo just in case but they have to be realistic of the quality of embryo as well as them surviving the freeze and thaw. If we have to go through this again I will ask about extended culture. Hoping extra supplements, lifestyle changes for both of us have made enough difference with all the hormone support and low dose pred

Ok I emailed them. We've just both sat here pretty annoyed that we were told one thing and then made to feel like we made it up. I emailed the PA asking to talk to the consultant on EC duty tomorrow morning and she forwarded it to my consultant and told me who was on. Wasn't really sure what else to do, but I really didn't love the call from the embryologist acting like that's not a thing. We didn't make it up! Her colleague said it, so one of them is talking crap and not us.

@kerrym87 I'm glad you could have a chat with the embryologist to explain things.

@thislittlebird the one that will be used next is a day 5 AA that was expanding on day 5 8/10 embryoscope score (hatching now as biopsied). The last one was a full blast at day 5 so the embryologist when they thawed to biopsy (I asked for this after 2 unsuccessful transfers), they said they didn't know if it would be at biopsy stage the following day in which case it wouldn't be able to be refreezed, it was though and they biopsied it and it is technically day 6, it is BB and 5/10 on embryoscope score.

This is in the context of having:

BC 8/10 untested - no implantation
AA 10/10 untested - no implantation
BB 9/10 euploid - no implantation
BB 9/10 euploid - no implantation
AA 8/10 euploid - chemical

My consultant is annoying, so I don't expect his response to make things better really. Just wish he was a better communicator, his one line responses won't be very reassuring.

@thislittlebird what's happening? What did they say initially and what are they saying now?

I posted at the end of the last page @Gardenlady543 saying this:

Had a heated chat with the embryologist. One embryologist told DH his sample needed to be done as near as possible to egg collection, I asked them about this on an email and they rang and basically said that isn’t a real thing. We’ve been assuming this was a plan and now they say it’s just going to be the same as last time. I’m unimpressed to say the least, I don’t know whether to email my consultant or wait until we speak to a doctor there tomorrow. I don’t even know what I’m asking, why are they telling us different things?

@Gardenlady543 I don't know much about the embryoscope, but those grades are all good, BB included but I guess you're assessing it on the embryoscope score. I can't believe none of those embryos were good, there must be something else going on, as there likely is with all of us.

@thislittlebird yeah this is why I'm a tough case, I got 9 blasts in my fresh cycle, when I thawed for biopsy only 1 was aneuploid the rest euploid, mostly top grades and yet I've never implanted trying naturally or in transfer cycles bar the one chemical at the end of last year. It doesn't make sense, had every test, tried everything.

So one embryologist said as close to egg collection and what's the other one saying? Don't they always have the partner arrive at the same time and have them in the waiting area and call them in to produce a specimen timed to the collection?

@Gardenlady543 I have no idea if any of my blasts were genetically good, because my age isn’t on my side, but the grades were ok in the first cycle and only time I had implantation was with pred. I think you did too? I can’t shake the thought that it helped me achieve implantation.

One said as close to EC as possible and the other today said just ~normal~ timings/procedure. So no, that isn’t how it is at my private clinic, it seems. This is infuriating because normal last time was check in to your private room at 9.30am, husband gets called at 10.30 for sample and then we spent the next 3 and a bit hours sat around twiddling our thumbs, getting annoyed and hungry until they finally called me down to theatre. I doubt his sperm saw sight of my egg until another 1-2 hours after that, so maybe 2.30-3.30pm.

Thanks for the advice on EmbryoGlue, it makes sense they wouldn’t offer it if it cannot be used with fully hatched embryos.

thanks @2021ivfagain for the probiotic recommendation, I ordered some

@VenusStarr very happy you’ve had some good news finally after all you’ve been through recently, glad to hear you can trigger now, I hope it’s the one. Couple of people I know had dermoyd cysts in their ovaries, I think they’re fine as long as the don’t get too big and cause discomfort, but I think that happens over time usually anyway so hopefully not one to get in the way of your cycle.

Yes I’ve started my FET cycle, currently on Meriofert 300iu on alternate nights, had my 3rd injection yesterday and due for a 3rd scan tomorrow morning. Lining was growing well as of yesterday’s scan, however follicles seemed a little behind where they were in the mock cycle so I may not get to trigger as early as last time, we’ll see what they say tomorrow. Last time I triggered after just 7 days of stims and 4 injections, I may have a couple more days to go this time, we’ll see. After trigger and confirmed ovulation I’ll be on Cyclogest, Lubion, Inhixa 40mg and 185mg aspirin daily for 5 days then the transfer will happen. I’m also supposed to get a dose of intralipids between trigger and transfer.

I must say I never heard embryoscope scores were even a thing @Gardenlady543 , I have no idea what the ones for mine were, but reading your post I’m feeling less optimistic than ever that this is going to work for me. My only euploid embryo to transfer is a pitiful B-C. On my side I have the fact that natural pregnancy seems to occur easily for me, in fact because of my high rate of pregnancies and miscarriages my consultant thinks I may have hyper-fertility and my womb is ultra receptive even when the embryos are not good, plus I know genetic status trumps grade, but I cannot shake the implantation statistics for embryos in that grade, including when euploid. I technically have a second one frozen, but it’s the same grade and the PGS biopsy came back inconclusive twice so the odds are even lower. I’m really not feeling confident about this at all.

@clhiu don't let my history affect you, I am a worst case scenario patient, it makes no sense to anyone why I never implant, in my collection cycle my specialist said they are the highest rates of high quality euploid embryos she had ever seen, I was 35 at this point and I did better than most egg donors in their early 20's. We have a full hla dqa1 match which some people say makes things impossible but others don't believe in. So I don't know, I may as well keep trying.

@thislittlebird you should definitely push for them to call your partner in when you are going to theatre, that's what most places do as far as I'm aware. There is no reason for a sperm sample to be sat around for hours.

@Gardenlady543 What’s this match thing? Not heard of it

I’m really pissed off because my consultant basically backed up today’s embryologist so there’s no chance of them bending but we’ll try. I have never heard of a clinic that make you wait around as much as Lister. I can’t work out if it was a one off and tomorrow will be faster or if they always do this. No idea why I have to be in at 9.30 if I don’t go down until 1.30. At guys it was just in and out, checked in, got in a cubicle, received all the people, went down and was out by lunchtime.

@thislittlebird if you're both there and they call your partner in for the sample can you say no that you don't want the sample produced until you are going in for the collection?

Hla dqa1 match is a theory that some people are genetically incompatible, hla genes are what they match in transplants, but in this case you want them to be different, it's some kind of inbuilt mechanism to prevent inbreeding. Everyone has 2 genes so 1 from each partner goes into the embryo. Me and DH have the exact 2 genes, so every embryo I make will be identical to me and the theory is my body attacks it. Some Reproductive immunologists believe in it, others don't even bother testing for it. When I looked into it though 25% of people of my race have one of the genes me and DH share and it seems like 25% of people end up sharing both genes, 50% have one gene shared and the other 25% aren't a match. So I don't know, its probably common to be a match.

good evening everybody. Does anybody have any advice on how to get hold of vagibiom or flora femme from the US? The link to vagibiom on eBay says for US customers only and when I go to pay for flora femme I get a PayPal error page. Thanks x

@Gardenlady543 I’m sorry I didn’t mean to say your message upset me, not at all, it’s all very precious and helpful information and I’m glad for you to be sharing it. Basically the statistics are there for me to see and read and I cannot escape them. One minute I feel quite optimistic because of my pregnancy history then the other I get myself down because I know the stats don’t add up.
It really is interesting for me to see how complex things can be and how many different issues can be out there. The results from your egg collection do sound truly astonishing and really quite umbelievable that none of them has implanted so far despite no other known issues, I am sorry to hear as it must have been a constant disappointment. Small silver lining I guess that you’re in a position to be able to keep going for longer and you know you can create good embryos.
We might be currently on the same FET protocol, but sounds like we have the exact opposite issue, how curious! You can create excellent quality embryos, but they won’t implant. I can get pregnant easily at least as of the last time we tried, but seems with a load of aneuploid embryos only.
Navigating fertility issues really is a minefield!
I hope this is the one for you or at least they can find out the reason once and for all.
What’s a hla dqa1 match?

Just saw your explanation about the match @Gardenlady543, sorry cross-posting!

@IVF22 I don't know why it's doing that on flora femme, I was able to order through their website fine before.

I ordered vagibiom fine through this link a few weeks ago www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283879349182?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=bJRnUNU0Qv-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=El04jlgRs6&var=&widgetver=artemis&media=COPY

@clhiu I mean it was a few years ago I made these embryos now. I guess throughout my treatment I've had to face new hurdles eg getting diagnosed with a thyroid issue after 4 transfers, getting fibroids and needing open abdominal surgery to remove them, and people may say this reset me and now my chance is higher, but then I didn't have these issues before I started, except a 1cm fibroid that may or may not have affected things. Implantation failure and recurrent miscarriages have a lot of similarities, many of the same causes and in the end unless we get to hold a healthy live baby at the end of the day, we are in the exact same boat.

Thanks so much. I managed to order vagibiom but flora femme still not working 🤷‍♀️

@IVF22 can you pay in any other way, because of the postal service they use being unreliably in the past the company told me that PayPal were not happy with them but there is nothing they can do as it's the postal service that they have no control over. They said ordered arrive in the end but one of mine ended up in Australia for ages before then starting to move to the Uk like 2 weeks later. I was recently in USA so ordered a box from there so haven't had to use my Uk PayPal account recently, but it lets me click through to the PayPal sign in page.

I think you’re right @Gardenlady543 re cost cutting. @VenusStarr yes private with CARE. @thislittlebird really is bizzare. If this cycle doesn’t work we’re on a 100% refund package so you’d think they’d do everything possible to optimise?

Thats so bad about the mixed messages @thislittlebird think @Gardenlady543 suggestion is the way to go. Surely they have to do it all as close together as possible.

@VenusStarr thats great news. Hope you can find the fun in DTD!

Hope everyone else is okay.

Has anyone sourced DHEA in this country/speedier option from reputable source? Biovea are saying ETA 20-24th April which seems ages away when I need to make the start ASAP, I didn’t realise it shipped from USA initially, but it was the company my clinic suggested.

@Gardenlady543 Just a thought but when you had your biopsy did they test your nk cells in the endometrium? I have some low nk cells in endometrium which can affect implantation so I am having treatment for it.

When I was younger, I had top grades for embryos but the one that stuck was when I had two day 5 blastocysts transferred as a fresh transfer. One was 6B+B+ and other 6B-B-. Now I have been told that when two are transferred it helps implantation. Both of these implanted but only one stuck and continued to grow and that is my 2 year old son.

@2021ivfagain yes I had two biopsies in Coventry results were normal and low (opposite of expected), then a nk activity biopsy, result was normal. Blood nk cells were 15% so only slightly raised but I'm in a full immune protocol now.

Had no idea @Gardenlady543 just another thing to add to the list 🙃 had a blood test to check it. @thislittlebird I'd only googled but I've looked up images now 🤢 grim. But it's quite small.

I've not long triggered but I think I'm already ovulating, it's quite intense. Just going to try to focus on taking the wins where we can. Not going to get my hopes up though. Waiting for dh to come home to resume the schedule! @Enfys23 😅

I'm glad you spoke to the embryologist @kerrym87 strange how it was a good grade but not with all the right material. It's so complex. I hope the one you have on board is the one.

I took sitagliptin for low endometrium nk cells @2021ivfagain but it might be a coincidence but had lining issues after. Dr Shehata is not fussed about it though, he doesn't rate uterine biopsy for nk cells.

Hope you can sort things with the clinic @thislittlebird its horrible you're going into collection feeling this way ❤️

Thank you @clhiu it is small so fingers crossed it stays that way. Hope your next scan goes well xx

It will only let me pay using PayPal. I sign in but when I go to pay I get the error message. I’ve messaged the company a couple of
times to ask if they deliver to the uk but they haven’t responded so they must be interested in the business