Sheffield father and his abuse of his family.

[Pan]

Am I right in seeing there is no thread on this harrowing tale??

Is anyone else slightly bemused by the statements of "evil", and "how could this happen?" when we have a society predicated on greed, sex, power, the male hegemony, derisive attitude to children, and a baffling notion of what is private and how that affects the public.

He isn't evil. He accepted an offer that society was offering him. IMO.

I've just read that on sky news active. How awful, why wasn't it picked up by the SS etc??

it is. The man had choices on how to behave. He chose the rapacious one. He is guilty individually with a VERY high degree of moral turpitude. Evenso, he lives and breathes in an environment that facilitates this, non?

This case?

yes, that one. He will no doubt die in prison, and there seems no justifiable reason as to why he shouldn't.

for this to happen suggests a 'conspiracy' of sorts. To ensure children are continued to be abused, society 'looks the other way', and we are suddenly aghast at the result.

There was no conspiracy as such. The reason it wasn't acted on earlier is because he put the absolute fear of God into his children and they were too scared to say that he fathered their children.

but people do look the other way don't they?

Even on here you see it all the time.

People who don't want to even read about such things, would rather avoid it. Avoiding it is easier for you on a personal level, but it shows that society avoids allowing itself to confront these things and thus condemn them. Everyone looks away, everyone says "What can I do, I can do nothing, so I don't want to hear about it because it upsets me" when the reality of course, is that we can only tackle such things if we all face them and condemn them and demand action, and challenge and show that as a society, we care and will not just stand by. ONE person alone can't do much it is true. But a million people all saying how terrible, how awful, but I don't want to hear about it because I can't do anything, I'm just one person... what a waste.

And then there's the people whose response to any display of poor parenting or abuse or such is "Don't be judgemental, you don't know the situation, it might be a fab parent having a bad day, perhaps this is the only time they have ever kicked their child in the leg in the fruit aisle of tesco.."

Well, maybe just maybe we should all be a little more judgemental and a little more involved and join together to raise standards and redefine what is acceptable.

And stop excusing the inexcusable.

I would suggest there was a conspiracy on a wider level. Instilling fear of consequences would be an impotent threat IF the children knew that they would be believed and supported. ( he knew they wouldn't be, and told them so ).
If any one case in this country 'demands' that we look at how we regard our children as private property this this surely is it.

I don't understand this at all. Why did it take 20 years and 19 pregnancies, some of which were children were born for this to come to light! Its inconcievable to me that nobody outside the family knew and moreover did nothing. Its so shocking

yes, hecate. I get rather at some of the 'defenses' for child abuse on this site.

Have people really defended child abuse on this site . I have never seen that here or heard it in rl. I must have missed those threads.

Sorry, but I would think he probably is quite evil. Apparently he took a great deal of pleasure in what he was doing to his daughters, yet still knew it was wrong

I suspect he will get some comupence whilst in prison, where I believe he should reamin for a very very long time.

I have no idea how it could have been passed over for so long for both girls without coming to the attention of the authorities. The girls were too afraid to speak, but why was it never questioned the number of children born, etc.

But I disagree that he was allowed to do this and that society allowed him to do this He alone si responsible for his actions and what he has done. Noone else. He appears to be a vile man who took advantage of his two young daughters in the most awful way, and enjoyed doing what he did. No one made him do it. He knew it wa wrng. He alone is guilty.

Yes, there may be shortcomings on the authorities being able to pick up on this - but they are not guilty of a crime of this degree. I ahte the idea that such offences can be blamed on other people whereas IMO the only person actually resposnible for such actions if the man that carried them out. We shouldn;t be giving these people get out clauses nand saying that society says it is ok and helps them - for any normal person this would not occur.

yes, hulababy, HE is guilty, and no-one is 'blaming' anyone else. I was positing the notion that our desparately poor attitude to children provides him the space in which to behave so abusively. Particularly the element of 'private property' and the way we see applying to children as okay.

I do think our SS provision, and the way children at risk situatiions are managed needs looking at. But unfortunately this is nothing new and nothing that is unique to the UK. There are always evil people who will do evil things - there are very very few societies I can think of where this does not occur. Infact in some countries such acts re more opened accepted. At least here in the Uk 99.9% of people find such things abhorent when they read about it.

I don't think here in the Uk we dislike children, certainly no more so than in other countries.

Changes need to be made in light of recent cases yes.

I just get fed up of hearing of "excuses" for people like this. I her it all the time from my clients when I am working at the prison. They are so happy to let others, inc general society to take the main responsibility for the crimes they have done. And I am afrad I just want to scream at them "No - it was no one else. It was you!"

ah yes! The place on V. Way, near D.?

yes I hear/heard this over the years too from the ssame client-group.

Am trying to draw some distance between individual responsibility, and how we provide the environment for those who wish to abuse to do so. And partly, and largely for me, this lies in notions of private property and all of the things I said in the opening post.

and yes the "it's not my fault" shit gets my goat too!! We have choices.

but when we have restaurants advertising themselves as "child-friendly" it betrays the norm as not being child friendly.....

Yes, that's the place. Mind you I finish there next monh so not long now. Then will have an entirely different client group - all 5-7 year olds instead, so big change, lol.

Am in grumpy mood today (off sick again, grr) - hence getting all stressed over stuff like this!

quite right. he alone is responsible for what he did, but that is also not an excuse for society to do nothing to stop such 'people', in order to try to protect their victims. Protecting the vulnerable from evil IS societys responsibility.

Congrats on leaving, as it were!!

Since we last 'spoke' I now have an 's' in front of the 'PO' bit. [well-earned and smug emocion!]

take care. Hi ho hi ho.......

Clearly something went dreadfully wrong in this case. He moved his family every six months so maybe that's partly why SS and health/education authorities didn't notice what was going on? But you are right, 19 pregnancies gave plenty of opportunities for them to realise something was very wrong.

That UN report rated this country as one of the worst to bring up children. And SS are rushing to apply for lots of court orders in a backlash after Baby P - which could mean more over-reactions as in the Fran Lyons case and the ones in Nottingham and Sussex where the judges condemned social services for acting illegally.

Then you have the fact that children in care are moved with no notice between foster parents, get a crap education and are far more likely to end up in prison/homeless/addicted to drugs/teenage mums (and I know some teenage mums are fab but it's worrying that children in care are so over-represented among this group). We as a society make crap corporate parents.

I have no idea what the answer is. Maybe it's something to do with inequality and deprivation - although of course child abuse happens just as much in well-off families.

What I find incredible is this:

'On one occasion, the women called Childline and asked for a guarantee that they could keep their children, but when one was not offered they ended the call.'

I know that the people on the other end of the phone can't promise the world but it's very sad that these girls reached out for help that they then felt unable to accept. I'm not sure what more Childline could have done though - I would imagine they can't trace calls?

Congratulations Pan!

Hula, can I be nosy? Where are you going?

Sorry, 5-7 year olds - going to do some teaching assistant work. I got a PT level 3 job which I start in January. Looking forward to it.

All the best, Hula. Sounds nice. I guess you will no longer be our 'inside' into the workings of the prison service.