Sheffield father and his abuse of his family.

[Pan]

Am I right in seeing there is no thread on this harrowing tale??

Is anyone else slightly bemused by the statements of "evil", and "how could this happen?" when we have a society predicated on greed, sex, power, the male hegemony, derisive attitude to children, and a baffling notion of what is private and how that affects the public.

He isn't evil. He accepted an offer that society was offering him. IMO.

He is not evil? He simply took the opportunities presented to him by society? . Sorry but if society is that warped then surely there would be men fathering their grandchildren all over the country, and for the most part that is simply not the case.

As human beings we all (for the most part) know what is right and wrong. But there will always be people for whom what is right differs from the majority. And regardless of whether society is tolerant or not, there will always be people who will get away wiith it, often because what they are doing is so horrific that in general, people wouldn't even contemplate it to be a possibility. It's a huge leap from thinking someone might be beating up their wife and potentially abusing their children, to thinking that they're fathering their own grandchildren. I don't know anyone who would consider that a possibility if their neighbour's daughter kept having babies. Why would they?

Re the daughters I can see why they never spoke out. If you grow up with something then it is normal to you. What I find hard to understand though is why the mother didn't do something. Maybe she genuinely didn't know that this was happening to her children. After all the daughters didn't know it was happening to them, and quite possibly he treated the mother in similar way and she went along with it in the belief that she was protecting her daughters from the same. But after she left, why didn't she take them with her? Why didn't she speak out then about the abuce she might have suffered? Why didn't she worry that her children would be at risk when she left without them?

Afaik social services weren't involved with this family. So it is not a typical case of ss letting them down. No-one suspected there was a serious issue, and in reality I don't think that has anything to do with turning a blind eye to child abuce - for the most part we none of us know what goes on behind closed doors, and maybe in public they were the image of a happy family.

I recently read that the UK also has the highest rate of child sex abuse in Europe

"He isn't evil. "

WTF? Of course he is evil. He raped and battered his daughters. That is rare.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5233981.ece

1988 Suspicions raised at the daughters? school because of their injuries. These were attributed to bullying

1988-2002 Doctors raise concerns on several occasions to the two daughters about father of their children and the abnormalities in foetuses that did not survive

1997 Police investigate after brother makes allegations of incest. No action taken

1998 One daughter rings ChildLine to report abuse. Drops complaint on being told that there was no guarantee that she would be able to keep her children

2004 Social services involved when family returns to South Yorkshire

February 2008 Father rapes younger daughter for last time

June Police arrest father when daughters make complaint after approach from journalists

I assume Childline is anonymous so very little they can do in such a situation.

Why SS didn't act further on suspeciions I don't know

And what about the mother? Where does she fit in in all this?

og the 19 pregnancies , 5 ended in miscarriage, 5 were terminated, 2 babies died at birth so they have 7 children between the 2 of them - that is not anunusual amount and if they were moved every 6 months i guess htey had different doctors/midwife teams etc , therefore it is concievable that it did not look alarming to health care proffessionals - sorry but it is another case of disjointed care allowing the most vulnerable in our society to fall betweent the cracks.

I think the childline thing id tricky, they have an honesty policy i believe so as they couldnt make any guarantees i suppose they couldnt say they would

am really angry their 15 yr old brother went to the police and it was ignored, he was so young, tried to do the right thing and still his sisters suffered

i had seen the story headlines but also thjought itr was the fritz case

He is a very rare exception I don't think this case highlights a need for most normal, caring families to be intruded on, is that what the OP is implying ?

It might be a rare exception however it does happen, maybe not to this extreme.

I have a friend who is one of 4 girls, all of which were sexually abused by their stepfather. He played them off against each other and their want to protect each other. He only got caught because he got one pregnant so the story came out. He got 2 years in prison for this. My point being its not that rare, maybe not the extreme of this new case but it happens. In the case of my friend nobody did anything at all every though the family were obviously in crisis. What I cant believe it happens over and over again.

when i saw the headlines i assumed it was a case my friend is investigating. its not, its one very similar. this father is now onto his granddaughters, whom he fathered.my friend says its impossible to do anything as none of the family will speak out against him. she also is finding it difficult to gain entry as he has cctv and dogs.

IMpossible to do anything? What not even remove the children???

How did the girls mother not notice that the babies were popping out looking similar if they kept moving home so much?

hifi.. can your friend not get the police to force entry if children are at risk?

Is this another case that's going to hit the headlines soon?

This case is beyond the comprehension of most, and makes for very upsetting reading.

I take the view though that this man represents the very blackest part of human nature, and is very very much the exception to the rule. Most parents do not behave like this, regardless of the cues that society gives them. I'm afraid that I feel that linking this crime with the term 'family friendly' in restaurants is simply nonsense.

There are always two sides to any debate. There was a thread recently (I hope it's ok to mention another thread on here) where a caring mum was very upset to be questioned by a school support worker for having both kids at home off school at the same time.

The general tone of the thread was strongly against the support worker asking these questions and saying 'how dare she', 'snotty bitch', 'tell her to eff off' etc etc. There was a similar reaction on another thread about a school secretary under similar circs.

Generally, we loathe and detest the idea of having our privacy invaded by authorities, and when it's to question our parenting then it's even worse.

This is alongside a more general growing hatred for the 'nanny state' and state 'interference' which is what many people think SS represents.

Somehow we have to make it ok to ask about other people's kids, to question people's parenting and if need be to do so with force. We're a very long way from that at present, with most parents feeling extremely angry if there is any hint of criticism of their parenting, or any professional concern for their kids' welfare or development.

MorrisZapp - maybe the answer is more openness and accountability? SS are very, very scary to many parents, especially those with a history of depression like myself. Partly because rumours and half-stories circulate about how children can be taken away for what seem to be the most tenuous of reasons while others are left in shocking situations. Fran Lyon was only able to go public because her baby had not yet been born.

I think we should know this man's identity - why should he be protected? People close to his daughters will have been able to work out who they are and they should have been offered new identities if that is what they wanted, as argued in the Times today:

business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article5233982.ece

I would allow SS complete access to my home and children if there was ANY accountability.
I've actually fallen out with a sort of friend who is defending the social worker in the Baby P case.
She herself admits that before she had children she was putting children on the at risk register because the mothers weren't making eye contact with their children, she now realises as a mother herself the 16/17 year olds were just bloody tired.
The support worker on the thread you are referring to was downright rude to the lady and that's why it was implied that she was out of order.
Many people with a tiny bit of authority over step the mark and yet those with real power do the least at times.
The father in this case terrified the daughters to the point when Dr's and SS who did notice and kind neighbours who tried to help were lied to by the girls themselves. Really in that case, how would ID cards or further intrusion have helped if the girls denied any wrong doing.

I would allow SS complete access to my home and children if there was ANY accountability.
I've actually fallen out with a sort of friend who is defending the social worker in the Baby P case.
She herself admits that before she had children she was putting children on the at risk register because the mothers weren't making eye contact with their children, she now realises as a mother herself the 16/17 year olds were just bloody tired.
The support worker on the thread you are referring to was downright rude to the lady and that's why it was implied that she was out of order.
Many people with a tiny bit of authority over step the mark and yet those with real power do the least at times.
The father in this case terrified the daughters to the point when Dr's and SS who did notice and kind neighbours who tried to help were lied to by the girls themselves. Really in that case, how would ID cards or further intrusion have helped if the girls denied any wrong doing.

Thanks for the link upwind, v interesting. I don't agree with that writer though. How does she know how these victims feel or what evidence they were able to give?

They'd already shied away from asking for help once, presumably if they'd thought they would have to stand trial and relive their ordeal they simply wouldn't have come forward at all.

It is clearly in the interest of the police and related care services etc to understand exactly what happened and why. But do the public really need the details? I don't see why we do.

If the victims involved wish to retain their anonymity then they must be allowed to do so, and this message must be sent out to enable other terrified victims to feel safe in coming forward if they are in a smiliar situation.

I feel worried that when writers at The Times ask for unmasking of this abuser, then it gives a certain licence to the more downmarket press to find out who he is (presumably isn't too hard) and publish, regardless of the hurt it may cause the victims.

Katiedd, I don't agree that rudeness was the problem on either of the threads I mentioned. In both cases the OPs were upset and angry to have their care skills questioned, and got outraged support from others who agreed.

the moon, she is working in conjunction with the police, without the family cooperating theres nothing they can do.

I don't think it's right to say that society offers him the opportunity for evil.

Although the fact that the 15 year old brother went to the police and his accusations were dismissed as "hearsay" is so shocking. And says something about the still primitive attitude of the police to rape.

What I found almost more unbearably sad in this case than in Elizabeth Fritzl's, is that this bastard didn't even need to physically imprison his unfortunate daughters. He had such total control over them, that locking them up was unnecessary.

this case upsets me. some of the doctors realised who the father of the babies was. surely something could have been done then? s simple dna test would have proved the paternity, so the girls wont have to give any evidence.