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Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

1000 replies

BreadInCaptivity · 03/08/2022 00:09

Previous thread:

Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

OP posts:
Mennex · 03/08/2022 12:27

The media reporting is awful too. Guy on Sky news now saying 'tgeres now some hope for treatment abroad". Who are these amazing foreign doctors that can reverse brain necrosis?

Nocutenamesleft · 03/08/2022 12:28

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 03/08/2022 08:39

It's been mentioned on Sky she has also been told that Doctors in Japan and Turkey can help him recover..

I’ve just read the doctors reports

he cannot ever recover. Not even a miracle could make him recover at this point.

rightly so the judge was correct. He’s died.

LouisRenault · 03/08/2022 12:29

I strongly believe that children in these cases should be given anonymity in the media, in the same way as children involved in family court proceedings.

Sometimes they are. You read of cases where the parties are referred to as Child A and Mr and Mrs B and the hospital isn't named.

I imagine in this case the family had put it in the public domain before any court proceedings, so it was too late for the court to make any order about anonymity.

Bunnycat101 · 03/08/2022 12:33

The media has a responsibility here I think. She is at best deluded and being manipulated.His privacy and dignity has been denied and she is spouting any old crap without censure. The fact she was on bloody Jeremy Kyle rather than being at the hospital speaks volumes but surely the media must have some sort of duty of care?

Quia · 03/08/2022 12:34

He must have been dead when the ambulance arrived, I will never understand why they kept him alive at all.

I think someone on a previous thread said that paramedics aren't allowed to stop CPR as they are not qualified to pronounce someone dead.

DatingIsDifficult · 03/08/2022 12:35

nolongersurprised · 03/08/2022 12:09

In order for his heart to stop whilst ventilated, something would have to happen. Like, sepsis with shock, drop in BP maybe due to huge urine loss.

The “something happening” part would be distressing for Hollie. Monitors beeping, people rushing around, interventions trailed and failing, the heart rhythm changing, slowing, stopping. and of course no CPR after his heart stopped.

Versus : monitors off, infusions ceased, time for the family to cuddle him, talk to him, play music then the tube out with family around

@nolongersurprised thank you for that really clear answer.

Before this next question, I want to make it clear I’m not being disrespectful to Archie or any of his family, I simply want to understand this complicated medical event in basic layman’s terms so I can get my head around it all.

So (a question for anyone) is it sort of correct to say he did actually die in April, and they have basically hooked up a dead person to external equipment to give the illusion of life? I was struck by someone upthread saying you can take a beating heart out of an animal and hook it up to equipment to give it electrical impulses but it doesn’t make that animal alive. And if so, could you take anyone who had died in the last hour and achieve the same outcome?

And, again, no disrespect intended, where is the tipping point for the initial ambulance crew? Where do they and don’t they attempt resuscitation and shocking and A&E?

BongoJim · 03/08/2022 12:35

Mennex · 03/08/2022 12:27

The media reporting is awful too. Guy on Sky news now saying 'tgeres now some hope for treatment abroad". Who are these amazing foreign doctors that can reverse brain necrosis?

From what I've read he is a ward of court which makes removing him from the country slightly problematic even without taking into account the fact he's not actually alive.

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 03/08/2022 12:35

Nocutenamesleft · 03/08/2022 12:28

I’ve just read the doctors reports

he cannot ever recover. Not even a miracle could make him recover at this point.

rightly so the judge was correct. He’s died.

Well apparently they have treatment that we don't! Except its been kept quiet..and is a miracle really. Its getting a bit silly now who is telling her these things?! There is no alternative treatment..

DatingIsDifficult · 03/08/2022 12:36

Oops looks like I’ve cross posted with one of those questions.

JackieQueen · 03/08/2022 12:36

Hoowhoowho · 03/08/2022 12:26

I don’t think that Hollie Dance is making the right decision. It wouldn’t be my choice. I think this is an unusually clear cut case medically but she still has my every sympathy and I understand her rage.

I have lived the high level conflict with the NHS over months too. We engaged a barrister but never got as far as court because my daughter deteriorated and we chose (probably based on poor advice) to withdraw treatment. Parents like me don’t comment on threads like this because we are too fucking traumatised. Seven years on I get severe tachycardia and fainting in hospitals which is a bit of a problem because I work in one.

Hollie will be being treated badly in the hospital by the staff, she will be being kept misinformed, being patronised, gossiped about. She will feel the hate. I’ve talked to lots of parents in high conflict situation including those who have had high profile cases and their experience is similar. I wrote an article once when I was feeling I needed to pander to medical staff still www.medicalmediation.org.uk/content/stories-rumer/
and a lot of it still holds true. There are no winners in these conflicts and they still are often handled badly by medical teams who ultimately do have the responsibility for handling them well

And afterwards there is the rage. For high profile cases often that rage is worse because their stories are never fully rounded. It must be hard for Charlie Gard’s parents for instance to see him brought up again and again here without the acknowledgment that the ethicist who testified against them ultimately acknowledged he’d been misinformed and that they had been poorly treated by GOSH. The stories in these cases are so complex many of them can never be told fully to strangers. I struggle to tell mine, explaining the PTSD I give the soundbites
How the neonatal consultant via email hoped I had a stillbirth
How the palliative care consultant said I was lucky to have a baby with a life limiting condition because she’d be quiet not like her own healthy children
how they did an invasive investigation under anaesthetic and agreed among themselves to not infact do it properly as they didn’t want ro to treat but never told us and lied to us about the results
people think those things are terrible but honestly they weren’t the big problems.

Parents in these situations are David against Goliath and when all is said and done, they’ll be alone, cut off from support and counselling services (the director of children’s services instructed their counsellors to take us off their list) , denied information and unable to ever find peace. Rage is eternal and sympathy hard to find. Even more so I imagine for high profile cases, if your every decision and action has been analysed for weeks and your motives questioned, people think they know your story better than you.

Almost all parents who fight want what’s best for their children and we should remember always that best interests are subjective. I agree with the majority on this case as to what Archie’s best interests are but I doubt his mother wants to harm him. In many cases I think best interests are far less clear cut.

I’m glad Hollie has the opportunity to enable Archie’s situation to be considered by the courts but I know it won’t bring her peace to have ‘done everything’, there has to be a better way to handle conflicts. One that is less adversarial, kinder, more collaborative and honest. That leaves fewer families living in a wave of rage.

So sorry for your terrible experience and loss 💐

Bunnycat101 · 03/08/2022 12:37

@Mennex I agree. That is totally irresponsible of Sky to be saying. They are just repeating the rubbish coming out of her mouth without verification or doing their actual job as journalists to dig into the truth. The reality is this boy cannot be brought back. The media circus is damaging to everyone involved. It would be better if they just shut down the reporting and let the courts deal with things in private now without stirring the pot further.

itsgettingweird · 03/08/2022 12:37

This is public because Ms Dance (and possibly Me Battersbee but we don't see him doing interviews) made the decision to make it so.

They gave their views to the public and therefore the public are invited to make opinion.

She chooses to call those caring for her son executors and murderers and is allowed under free speech and therefore it must be allowed that others offer their opinion on her and her motives for saying these things.

If she wanted this private and public comment wasn't invited the court could have been asked to out a media injunction on it.

loislovesstewie · 03/08/2022 12:39

@Quia , when my husband was found unresponsive early in the year, the paramedics did just that. They advised me that there was no point in carrying on with CPR etc, as he just could not be 'revived'. There was no doctor called to certify death , he wasn't taken to the mortuary but straight to the funeral directors , and from there to have a PM the next day. Clearly, some are qualified to pronounce that death has occurred.

StClare101 · 03/08/2022 12:42

EYProvider · 03/08/2022 12:20

That’s a terrible thing to say. His poor mum.

This whole thread is in awful taste, I’m surprised it’s allowed.

His mum has called doctors murderers. THAT’s a terrible thing to say.

My niece’s life support was turned off because her family put her interests first. Her dignity. Her peace.

Hollie Dance is doing the exact opposite. She gets no sympathy from me.

UniversalAunt · 03/08/2022 12:43

@Hoowhoowho Thank you for the link to your article about Rumer, her story & your experiences.
I read with interest & understand well the challenge of working together in reconciliation after a heartfelt hard fought battle for someone you love with those who are doing their best.

I hope that your honesty, integrity & warmth are valued & the medical professionals make good on this.

ContentInLife · 03/08/2022 12:44

Quia · 03/08/2022 12:34

He must have been dead when the ambulance arrived, I will never understand why they kept him alive at all.

I think someone on a previous thread said that paramedics aren't allowed to stop CPR as they are not qualified to pronounce someone dead.

This is incorrect. Paramedics can recognise life extinct in any patient that presents with a particular set of circumstances. They don’t “pronounce death”. They recognise life extinct.

A child in cardiac arrest due to asphyxia is likely to be in a heart rhythm incompatible with life but that doesn’t fit into the criteria to recognise life extinct on scene, though we would not have great expectations for recovery. Once a child has arrested because of lack of oxygen it is extremely rare to get them back.

Archie died long ago. There is NO hope of recovery.

I strongly believe Hollie is mentally ill and needs urgent assessment and treatment to save her from herself. What is happening right now is an absolute farce and I feel so sad for Archie. His dignity has been destroyed by his parents.

OpinionsUnseen · 03/08/2022 12:47

Sky news have form for parroting what they’ve been told.

On the day of the 7/7 bombings they were e.g. reporting that people had been shot dead in Canary Wharf, that several more buses had blown up, and the list goes on, and all this from members of the public just reporting to them.

Seriously you could ring up sky news and tell them that Aliens had just landed on the green nearby and they’d be reporting it as fact before too long.

But then what do you expect from an organisation which was part of the Murdock empire.

WildOats5678 · 03/08/2022 12:47

Quia · 03/08/2022 12:34

He must have been dead when the ambulance arrived, I will never understand why they kept him alive at all.

I think someone on a previous thread said that paramedics aren't allowed to stop CPR as they are not qualified to pronounce someone dead.

We follow something called “8 unequivocal signs of death” (google can tell you them) which if anyone is displaying any of those signs then we do not attempt to resuscitate. Otherwise we will start to commence CPR and once committed either stabilise and transfer to hospital or wait until a specialist/doctor turns up with the back up to say stop and declare death.

nolongersurprised · 03/08/2022 12:48

DatingIsDifficult · 03/08/2022 12:35

@nolongersurprised thank you for that really clear answer.

Before this next question, I want to make it clear I’m not being disrespectful to Archie or any of his family, I simply want to understand this complicated medical event in basic layman’s terms so I can get my head around it all.

So (a question for anyone) is it sort of correct to say he did actually die in April, and they have basically hooked up a dead person to external equipment to give the illusion of life? I was struck by someone upthread saying you can take a beating heart out of an animal and hook it up to equipment to give it electrical impulses but it doesn’t make that animal alive. And if so, could you take anyone who had died in the last hour and achieve the same outcome?

And, again, no disrespect intended, where is the tipping point for the initial ambulance crew? Where do they and don’t they attempt resuscitation and shocking and A&E?

With a child paramedics are more likely to keep going.

But - it’s quite possible that Archie still had a beating heart by the time the ambulance. IIRC I thought he did arrest, but at or near the hospital, so proper resuscitation with an endotracheal airway was an option.

There is sufficient oxygen in the body cavity to sufficiently oxygenate the heart and keep it bearing for up to 30 min or so, without breathing.

Bearing in mind that for a decent chunk of time he blocked off the blood flow to his brain (carotid arteries) causing irreversible brain damage, so the damage to his brain wasn’t just that he stopped breathing for too long, it was because there was no flow to his brain at all for too long.

Damaged/dying brain cells swell and release toxins and things get worse, hence why it took a few days, sequential scans, clinical review etc to absolutely appreciate that he wasn’t going to recover.

And here we are, nearly 4 months later

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 03/08/2022 12:49

Most people would do this to try to keep their child alive.

No they wouldn't. Because this is no longer about Archie's best interest, it's about hers.

xsquared · 03/08/2022 12:50

Sorry, didn't spot this thread so reposted from end of thread 3:

This is being discussed on Radio 2.

It is utterly heartbreaking, but Archie needs to be let go of now. Someone described this as abuse of corpse on FB, and while it's a horrible way to describe it, they're not entirely wrong.

StClare101 · 03/08/2022 12:50

WhatTAF · 03/08/2022 12:12

Blimey. An ‘unbearable narcissist’. You have made that judgement on a woman whom you have never met, who is going through one of the worst things imaginable 😮. Whilst you may not agree with her behaviour and actions in a situation I pray to God never to be in, surely the woman deserves some compassion.

No. You might pray to never be in that situation but I have witnessed it play out with my niece. Her needs were put first. I have no compassion for parents who put their own wants above their child’s needs… who let their child’s body suffer indignity after indignity while they do media interviews and call medical staff murderers.

justmaybenot · 03/08/2022 12:50

Quia · 03/08/2022 12:18

Do you not see how all this talk about the virtues of "fighting" for your child and how it's what any parent would do for their child is essentially an attack on people like you and, indeed, me? We didn't have this long and bitter fight with the people trying to help our child, we took the decision to put our children first and let them go, and yet we're being made to feel in some way inferior.

It's very easy to sling around words like "toxic" and "vitriol" without considering whether those terms are merited; or, if people are being vitriolic, who that is directed at. The reality is that by far the most bad feeling on these threads is directed at CLC and the idiots on FB exhorting Archie to leap from his bed and suggesting ludicrous miracle cures to Ms Dance. If that's unkind to CLC and those individuals, so be it. They can easily come on here and explain themselves.

I'm sorry for anyone who has lost a child in any circumstances or has had to make such horrendous decisions about end of life withdrawal of supports, but different people respond very differently when faced with such grief, and your comment that 'we took the decision to put our children first' is in itself a judgement on Archie's mother.

Reallybadidea · 03/08/2022 12:53

loislovesstewie · 03/08/2022 12:39

@Quia , when my husband was found unresponsive early in the year, the paramedics did just that. They advised me that there was no point in carrying on with CPR etc, as he just could not be 'revived'. There was no doctor called to certify death , he wasn't taken to the mortuary but straight to the funeral directors , and from there to have a PM the next day. Clearly, some are qualified to pronounce that death has occurred.

So sorry for your loss. Sometimes it is obvious by the person's appearance or from the ECG that someone has been dead for a little while, or that their heart stopped beating too long ago to restart. In those circumstances the team wouldn't continue.

Obviously I don't know what happened with Archie, but brain death doesn't always happen immediately but hours/days after their heart has been restarted. So if you can restart the heart then treatment would normally be continued until it became apparent that meaningful recovery is impossible. Where brain death occurs separately from the heart stopping the time of death would normally be the time brain stem death testing was performed rather than when the heart stopped, because that is the legal time of death.

Thornethorn · 03/08/2022 12:53

StClare101

Shame on you for your heartlessness towards a grieving mother. There is no good way to grieve. She is in agony. Don't judge her until you have been there. Your compassion costs nothing. I'd rather have her misguided desperation than your chilling disrespect.

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