So who is right for Oxbridge?

[myladyjane]

DD just started a levels - big standard state comp for GCSEs and now state 6th form college.

she did well at GCSEs - mostly 8s with a couple of 7s. No 9s (she was 2 - 3 marks off in a few subjects but we didn’t go for any remarks).

she was never top of the class, she was typically in the top 4 or 5 of top set. She’s not one of those effortless straight 9 types. She has to work but she is a bright girl. She does have a strong work ethic but isn’t massively robust (anxiety issues, possible nd traits).

college have put her in a high performing cohort - this is great and I had assumed she’d be aiming for a RG uni but college are suggesting she considers Oxbridge.

does she sound Oxbridge material (it would be to do geography). I want to be supportive but she is a sensitive little chicken and I’d rather gently steer her down a path she is more suited to.

but perhaps I am not being supportive enough and why not give it a shot if she could have a chance.

Oxford only runs open days in September and July (wish there was one in Spring term!), so this will be why the 6th form college has identified potential applicants so quickly into lower sixth. No harm in getting interested in applying, though she will need at least A*AA predicted grades to be able to apply and it’s obviously very early days into her A-levels. We have many interested students at the start of 6th form and this number reduces over the course of the year.

As someone said earlier, they are looking for curiously and critical thinking ability in the interview. it is however a bit of a lottery to get an interview in the first place. I’ve had A* students not get interviews. The latest admission stats show about 400 applicants vs 250 interviews vs 100 offers. There are simply too many excellent applicants for the places.

These stats are easily found online. You can also see the figures for the number of 8s and 9s at GCSE achieved by Geography offer holders. The majority seem to have at least nine 8s/9s. But context is everything. Offers were also given to a number of students with six or seven 8s/9s. (Note that there is no official distinction made between 8 and 9).

Hopw your daughter enjoys her A-levels. Now she has been enthused about Oxford, encourage her to read around her subject as much as possible (and keep a list of interesting points for discussion). Even if she doesn’t end up applying, it will be useful for writing her personal statement and of course for general interest!

My DD had not dissimilar GCSEs from a bottom 25% performing school. She was not flagged by Sixth Form as potentially high achieving and didn’t consider Oxbridge - no one suggested it, yet she could see that it had been to others. She ended up with extremely good A Levels and EPQ and exceptional super curriculars including winning a national competition. She is at a London Uni which is always rated in the UK top 5 and is extremely competetive to get in to. She wishes that someone had suggested she try for Oxbridge - like the majority of applicants she probably wouldn’t have got in, but it would have been worth a go. So encourage your DD to try if she thinks it’s for her.

Poor Kid. Let her get settled in, enjoy her subjects. Take her to universities in the spring/ summer and let HER decide

@NuffSaidSamGood God! You don’t need an intense passion at all. My DD didn’t. Just be sufficiently interested to maintain the workload.

The GCSEs would be very low for Oxford. I imagine college are inclusive and are trying to encourage aiming high. Many schools would expect dc to have some 9s.

My understanding is that, as @Moonlaserbearwolf says, 8s and 9s are treated the same by Oxford and other unis (for one reason, in Wales there is no grade 9 equivalent, just A star. Also true for some IGCSEs). So the OP's DC's results at GCSE would actually be fine by that metric.

(My expertise on this is very much anecdotal though. Not sure about @Moonlaserbearwolf but they spoke with authority).

@clary What they say, and who actually gets offered a place, are not the same thing at all! Considering applicants is not the same as offering to applicants. Far from it.

She got straights As in old money. She is 100% capable. People who go to Oxford aren’t magic, even if they are insufferable.

• she would really need to lean in and work hard with A levels. Go above and beyond
• she needs to consider whether the tutorial system would suit her. Some fall apart there, not because it’s too hard but because it’s very unstructured and they don’t get to grip with how to sensibly consume the vast numbers of books you’re told to read before tutorials (tip: you don’t - you find strategies to extract)

Did your DD go to Oxbridge?

Ok but what about someone from Wales? They cannot gain any grade 9s. Or as I say, a student who took letter IGCSEs (same thing)? I don’t see how A star is OK there but 8 is not. Surely they need to be consistent?

Many schools would expect dc to have some 9s.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner And many schools really wouldn't expect that and Oxford certainly takes into account the context of the school or college in which grades were achieved. If the dd is in a high-achieving school in which large numbers get 9s the grades could be considered on the low side, but I think the OP has clarified that this is not the case. But anyway, they do see 8s and 9s as the same, much to ds's annoyance at the time!

There is freedom of information data on the number of 9 grades held by applicants and successful applicants at Oxford for all courses. It is very recent. It’s not difficult to find. However, only 3 courses show successful applicants with less than 5 grade 9s. These are Archaeology, Fine Art and History of Art. I’ve taken screen shots of the successful candidates column. There is more info than this but nowhere can I see 8s with no 9s having any chance at all. It lists the 8s gained per successful candidate but obviously you have to see these as in addition to the 9s and gives a clear picture of the profile accepted onto courses. Apologies for quality of screen shot but I urge everyone to
look at this data and be realistic.

Just judging by the table heading saying average grade 9 then it is possible that some had 0 and others 10 with the average being somewhere in-between. The data doesn't say that all of the students had at least that number of 9s.

There is no Oxbridge "type", but they are looking for a deep interest in the subject. 8/9s are considered to be the same grade as far as I know.

@ConBatulations Highly unlikely when you look at the 8 grades as well. Also most dc are taking probably 10 GCSE. If the average is 6 or 7 GCSEs at grade 9, there’s no statistical reason to think anyone, or even a handful, have no grade 9s at all. Look at the numbers on some of the courses. They are not large courses and it’s a big stretch to think no grade 9s is a profile that will be successful at Oxford. It’s utterly pie in the sky.

Are they passionate about the subject? Dds friend is starting Cambridge this year for geography. He lives and breathes it , loves having long conversations about the subject and loves writing essays on it for fun .

@RockyKeen That’s really not the norm. Not all dc are that single minded and should not be. My DD didn’t live and breathe her subject - she liked lots of things that were not a single focus.

I think this is what Oxbridge are looking for mainly. Real passion for the subject.

I think this is a very important post. I agree, not all young people are 'passionate and live/breathe their subjects', but everyone states this as a pre-requisite which is bound to turn highly gifted kids off.

Very gifted children are not uncommonly what I would call polymaths i.e. exceptional across numerous domains.

I do realise that it seems Oxbridge - at least lately - are not taking this into account but it is perfectly possible to be very interested in several subjects and still be able to do very well. Often these kids have done exactly the same achieving 10/11 x 9s across very different subjects, many of which they have not loved.

I know several kids who have got into Oxbridge in our circle. The thing that is almost the only common denominator is that they have teacher parents or teacher relatives significantly involved. I guess these kids have been brought up with this in mind, but I'd say many of them changed subject to apply to last minute but showed through various competitions (maths challenges etc) and going to lectures or listening to podcasts, that they are very interested or 'passionate'.

She sounds not dissimilar to my dd, who is heading to Oxford in a couple of weeks… so I’ll let you know! I was supportive of her applying as it’s what she wanted but was privately wondering if it was for her. She doesn’t get too grades effortlessly but puts in loads of work. She is conscientious and good at managing a high workload, but also prone to anxiety and overwhelm and has an ASD diagnosis. She tends to be ok when she knows where she is but gets thrown by things like last minute assessments.

she applied for a niche subject which might have helped and did loads of reading about it and got experience in the field so I think that’s what got her through the interview.

shes excited about going but also very nervous, and I am a little too, but hoping she’ll find like minded people there. She has a mentor funded through the DSA which will hopefully help with the transition which I know could be challenging for her.

GCSEs she was a mixture of 8s and 9s but then hit her stride with her a level subjects. The offer for her (humanities) course was 3 x A but she got a couple of A Stars.

i think if your dc wants to explore it then give it a go!

One of mine who applied to Cambridge had 4 A stars predicted plus an EPQ at A star. Of all my kids she had by far the most 'passion' for her subject / supposedly what we are told they're looking for. She was told in the feedback after rejection that it was because of her GCSE profile which was 'not as competitive in an exceptional field.' Her GCSEs were 9999998877. She had aced the entrance test and her interview scores were also very strong. But her GCSEs were contextualised according to her school in which 98% of all GCSEs are 9-7 and, to be honest, there are very few 7s overall each year. So her GCSEs were weak for her school, but we had hoped it wouldn't matter too much because her 7s were in maths and physics which are about as diametrically opposed to her subject choice as you can get. But, it seems it did matter, and I think if she'd applied to Oxford she probably wouldn't have even got an interview because they use GCSEs to make the initial cut. Anyway, she went in to get all A stars and only lost 2 marks at A level in both of the subjects relevant to her degree. When the college stats were published, I saw that 3 out of 7 of the people selected to the college she applied to either didn't accept their offers or didn't get the minimum grades required of Astar, A,A . They had needed to get someone out of the adjustment pool in August. You would think out of 40 odd applicants for 7 places they would at least be able to sift out the ones most likely to get the required minimum grades. But no.

One of my other DC applied to Oxford and also didn't get in (this one did get all 9s but had 'only' Astar, Astar A predictions from a similar school). In this case, her interviews scores were good, but not great. Reapplied with all A stars achieved and got in because she just got lucky with the interviewer's and subject matter. Went in to top the tripos at the end of Year 3, even though rejected first time. So it just shows the randomness of the process and that it's far from being an exact art. I wouldn't say this DC was even 10% as 'passionate' about the actual subject as the one who didn't get in and didn't want to reapply.

So, in my view, there is no rhyme and reason to any of it which is why they should do their best to put their best foot forward but really try to not take it personally, or as any reflection on their potential.

Also, my other DC who got into Oxford first time for a STEM subject, also had two 7s at GCSE (not related subjects) but that college obviously didn't mind. So again, who knows. It's seems to vary according to the priorities of tutors who happen to do the interviews. Particularly at Cambridge where colleges seem to operate more as separate entities..

@shecanbe I'm sorry, that is really tough on your DD and does show then that GCSE grades can matter – or can be put forward as the decider. I hope she wasn’t too downcast and it certainly sounds as tho it was Cambridge's loss in terms of her later grades.

No university will be the be-all and end-all. And we do need to make sure our YP know that to a very big extent even the apparently thorough process at Oxford and Cambs can throw up random result like this; and also that the majority (AFAIK) or interviewees and certainly of applicants will in fact not get an offer.

There are many wonderful universities in the UK and IME most DC do well at the one they end up at.

This

@XelaM They are not looking for passion alone. It’s clear they look at GCSEs for example. Having one high flying all consuming subject is not enough. For some courses the GCSE profile is very high and not spiky. You also need to ace tests and be able to think on your feet at the interview. Lots of dc who have dictated their own passion don’t necessarily find this easy.

Im not a teacher and nor is DH. We don’t speak any MFLs and didn’t help for one second - DD wanted to study MFLs. These places are full of dc whose parents have curated their education. They are “groomed” for their subjects by high academic achievers - their parents. My DD didn’t go to any lectures or do much extra but she read some books and watched some films. One of the tests was translating and then discussing an unseen poem. It turned out some at the interview knew the poem. She didn’t. She did know the subject matter of the poem though so felt she had discussed it as well as she could. A lot of the interview comes down to “useable” intelligence in a tricky situation. You don’t 100% know something - you use your general intelligence to deduce it. So I firmly believe they do like a certain package of intelligence and not just a single minded passion.

There are great alternatives to Oxbridge.

This is a great post, thank you. Really helpful. There's definitely some luck and randomness involved! I will encourage my DC not to pin all their hopes on it and not to put in so much 'prep' into it that it's at the expense of actual A levels.