So who is right for Oxbridge?

[myladyjane]

DD just started a levels - big standard state comp for GCSEs and now state 6th form college.

she did well at GCSEs - mostly 8s with a couple of 7s. No 9s (she was 2 - 3 marks off in a few subjects but we didn’t go for any remarks).

she was never top of the class, she was typically in the top 4 or 5 of top set. She’s not one of those effortless straight 9 types. She has to work but she is a bright girl. She does have a strong work ethic but isn’t massively robust (anxiety issues, possible nd traits).

college have put her in a high performing cohort - this is great and I had assumed she’d be aiming for a RG uni but college are suggesting she considers Oxbridge.

does she sound Oxbridge material (it would be to do geography). I want to be supportive but she is a sensitive little chicken and I’d rather gently steer her down a path she is more suited to.

but perhaps I am not being supportive enough and why not give it a shot if she could have a chance.

This is as much to do with the school environment (poor behavior, poor teaching in strongest subjects, bad health, life circumstances etc) as anything else. My DD also didn't get a single 9 but she was very ill for 2 weeks of her GCSEs (she sat them but she had a temp and would sleep after the exam for the rest of the day and night). She also went to a school where her results were some of the highest out of 180. She is extremely determined and ambitious but if Cambridge is not for her, I trust the admissions process will not let her in.

Goodness. No she didn’t get a single 9. What a failing eh.

thank you for all the helpful comments, they were very much appreciated. Hopefully she’ll have a good day out tomorrow if nothing else.

OP, I have a DD who studied Geog at Oxford. She had all 9s (but from a very selective school so contextualised as such). She didn't get in first time round, but reapplied with 4 A stars achieved and got in.

Was anyone at your DD's school getting lots of 9s? If not, and if 8s were outstanding in the context of her school, her GCSE grades should be fine. Everything is heavily contextualised.

Things your DD could start now -

Join the RGS (if in / near London, go to some lectures maybe)? Or watch online if possible?

Get the Royal Geog magazine subscription

Look at entering the RGS essay competition

Other essay competitions - eg. John Locke (doesn't have a distinct Geog category but there will be questions that can be answered with Geog perspectives / theory). I think Dukes Education (??) used to have an essay competition where there was one world like "Inequality" and then they could approach this from any discipline. Look also if any Oxford or Cambridge colleges have any relevant essay competitions.

Do an EPQ - does her 6th Form offer this?

There used to be an online student magazine for Geog called 'Routes' where students could enter articles and potentially have work published. Not sure if this is still running, but have a look.

Is she interested in physical or more human geography?

If Environmental issues are her interest, could she volunteer in any projects locally? Or if she's interested in human geography, she should start to think about her local environment through this type of lens.

If she wants to do some intro degree-level thinking (relevant to they way current teaching at these unis) she could look at perspectives in 'more than human' geography that basically examine how space is experienced by other species - how we can measure this and what are the confluence of cultural, economic, historic, political factors that bring this about - basically the 'biopolitics' of the what and the where of what allowed to live and what is not. This is a big theme in Geog at those unis (maybe a basic intro to Foucault and drop his later ideas around biopolitics into the PS - eg. how this has help her to think about her local environment differently). Also the whole issue of the Anthropocene (human behaviour is now the greatest impact on global systems) - ie. a new 'era' is upon us (there is disagreement about this). Or maybe it's a new 'epoch' that is the debate? Sorry, I didn't do the degree; I just picked this up from listening to DD and friends. A Geog degree is extremely diverse and not what people might expect.

Obviously she doesn't need to do all this!!! It's just a few ideas and she might use one or two for the PS.

Good luck to her!

I think that Oxbridge is worth a shot if the school / college is encouraging it and if that is what your daughter wants to do.

Evidence of interest could include doing an EPQ on an area related to geography. Is she interested in D of E and volunteering in a related area maybe? They would be looking for "supracurrcular" activities, hobbies or pursuits that show she is taking her interest in geography further.

Also, look for college essay competitions. Entering a college essay competition on a relevant subject and winning would be fantastic.

GCSE grade 8s are fine and are said to be classed together with 9s, at least by Oxford, probably Cambridge too.

There doesn't seem to be an exam required for Geography at Cambridge now.

Working hard all through year 12 to get really good predicted grades is very important.

There was an Open day on 10 September, there will be more next summer. Book to go on those if needed. Some Oxbridge colleges may offer accommodation before the Open Day, which would be interesting to see, and possibly motivating.

All the colleges and also Oxford and Cambridge university have websites.There are outreach activities linked to both the individual colleges and the University.

And it is really worthwhile having a go - there isn't really anything to lose!

@shecanbe that is super helpful thank you. It’s physical geography she loves (baffling to me - I dropped geography in yr 9 - I hated it).

interesting re the results - they were in the top 5 in her year I think. No one was an all 9 student (she is friends with the likely suspects). They had a couple of drops across the board in some subjects, notably English and geography (she went from a predicted 9 to a 7 in English and 9 to an 8 in geography. She got one of the best mark in geography in the year apparently). As amusing context, her twin sister who had the same geography teacher went from a predicted 7/8 to a 4 and said geography teacher is no longer with the school…

And the EPQ thing is interesting. Her sister is at a different college and they’ve mentioned a lot about EPQ (she’s doing core maths instead) but haven’t really been mentioned to her. She is going to ask her tutor.

she does have d of e bronze and silver but doesn’t want to do gold but there are some interesting places close by which she could volunteer at if she would like to.

Also, really don't make Oxbridge the be-all-and-end -all because it really is not.
Especially because if you study Geography at other unis (UCL or Scottish unis come to mind) there is the option of an overseas year. Oxbridge do not offer this.

Durham is great for Geog and it's one of their 'flagship' courses where you can study for a Bsc or BA. LSE also have a very prestigious Geog course (but it's more human Geog focused which may or may not suit her). If city unis are not her thing, there is St Andrews which is amazing, frankly. Also, as historic towns go, Uni of Bath do not offer Geography, but I think they offer a course 'Global Development and Economics' which is basically Geog. They used to offer this anyway. And Bath has overseas year options. Basically, she can't go wrong with any of these unis for her subject.

She is actually quite interested in geology as well. There is an interesting course in Cardiff she’s seen.

it certainly isn’t the be all and end all. I genuinely thought it wasn’t even something she was considering until yesterday!

you have all been amazing thank you.

Oh x post about her interest in physical Geog - sorry!

DS is applying for Oxford with mostly 8s at GCSE. Because of this he knows he has to tick every other box and has really knuckled down on super curriculars, reading, work placements, essay competitions, entrance exam prep and in ensuring he got 4 A* predicted. He wouldn't have bothered doing any of this without the incentive of Oxford. He may get in, he may not but he has achieved a lot on the way that will hold him in good stead.

Please encourage your DD to aim high and have big ambitions. Yes, it's disappointing if they don't work out (I didn't get into Oxford but I got over it quickly) but they raise the bar and open up opportunities that you wouldn't otherwise get - in this case additional school support

I have to say going to the Oxford open day was an eye opener. They are very open and encouraging of everyone applying. I was quite surprised about how much effort they made in promoting and engaging potential applicants and in selling themselves (you wouldn't think they'd need to). They want to find the best, most passionate students and that doesn't necessarily mean someone with a string of 9s at GCSE.

Different schools have a different attitude to this. I have twins in different schools. DS's school (which gets a lot of kids into Oxbridge and it's now compulsory to apply to Oxbridge 🤔) say don't bother with EPQ. They seem to know a lot about applications. The whole UCAS process is intense.

DD's school was the opposite, compulsory for everyone to do EPQ and they probably only have 1 or 2 applicants per year for Oxbridge. So DS didn't do it, DD did. I would go with the school's policy on it.

I second all the supporters on this thread. Enthusiasm for the subject she applies for is critical. Her GCSE grades are not a barrier. I hope your visit today will clarify things for both of you. A visit is so important because it helps a student imagine themselves there - or not. As a parent, remember that even if a student receives an offer, they don't have to accept if on reflection she feels it isn't for her.

I applied to Cambridge at the suggestion of my school, which was a comp when I went there for sixth firm but had been a boys grammar. I got through the entrance exam (which is no more) and was invited for interview. They didn't offer me a place and I happily went to UCL and had a great time. Years later, I'm still glad I gave it a go.

My DD graduated from Oxford last year. It was her idea to apply and her independent school supported her. I suspect she was offered the place because of the work she put in to catch up in the subject she applied for. At her comp, she had been taught to the test and got a 9 at GCSE but her underpinning knowledge was lacking.

Each student's story is unique, and there is no formula for determining who will benefit from what Oxbridge has to offer.

If your DD comes back from the open day really wanting to apply then obviously you should support her. If she's ambivalent then I'd say don't push her. As you can see by some of the replies here, the application process isn't just sticking it down on UCAS then having an interview if requested. Your DD will need to give the application a huge amount of headspace, deciding on Oxford or Cambridge? Deciding which college, which course? Putting together a PS showcasing a passion for her subject that she may not completely have etc etc
Statistically she will not be offered a place so it's worth thinking about how much she wants this before she, you & the school commit to the application process.
PS my DS is at Durham (not Geog) and loves it, would recommend 💯

the "sensitive little chicken" thing is as relevant if she gets in as if she doesnt!

yes rejection is statistically more likely (and few people go through life without any rejection - it's a life lesson) but it can be a hard thing to arrive at Oxbridge and discover everyone is also very bright and able. It's inspiring and refreshing too, don't get me wrong - the academic success not being treated as exotic or a personality trait was delightful to me. But self-analysis and perfectionism is just as rife as public school outward confidence, and you want to put some checks and balances in to make sure the senstivity wouldn't spiral into the wrong behaviours.

The person I replied to said she should be a person who doesn’t have to work themselves to the bone to get top grades. I was just pointing out this didn’t apply because she didn’t get the top grades whether she tried to or not.

Im not saying it’s a failing but I’m saying she doesn’t meet what they said was a requirement

Dd was placed in a similar ‘high achievers’ group at sixth form. She really had no desire to apply to Oxbridge, hadn’t considered it at all, but attended a couple of things where graduates came to speak to them, went to the open days, and attended one of the taster summer schools that Lincoln College offer. She completely fell in love with Oxford and the style of teaching and is starting there next month.

She needs to do some finding out about the places, explore whether it’s the kind of environment where she thinks she could spend 3 or 4 years. She has plenty of time to do that this year and next summer. The GCSEs are only one part of the application that they consider, but she will need to demonstrate a real passion for her subject and be able to think outside the box for any interview. Good luck.

As the person you replied to, I would argue you can assume she is someone who has to work her fingers to the bone to get top grades based on GCSE results, because there is a world of context that could make the difference between 8s and 9s. Grades do not always reflect ability. Work rate does not always reflect in grades (even after controlling for ability).

18 months ago my dd decided she wanted to apply for Oxford after getting mostly 9s in her GCSEs. She visited and liked it although she did really like other unis too such as York and Bath. She did lots of related work experience in the area she wanted to study but she wasn’t really doing a lot of related reading in the area despite knowing she’d have to prove a ton of supra curricular work. In September last year I was asking her if she’d read any books in the area or articles. She hadn’t. She was also supposed to be preparing for the Oxford test which takes a lot of work. She hadn’t started although she had booked it. In early October we had a tearful conversation where she came to the realisation that her heart wasn’t in it and she was only applying because she thought she should. I totally supported her and she cancelled the admissions test. She is now going to another top university this weekend and I know she will thrive. Meanwhile her friend from school who got a mix of 9s, 8s, 7s and one 6 is off to Cambridge. She is absolutely obsessed passionate about her subject and lives and breathes it. That would have come across at interview. She worked her socks off for the exam and interview prep and her last two years have been consumed by the application process. I am thrilled for her and she’s going to do great. But it’s not for everyone and I think it shouldn’t be entered into lightly. Those who suggest ‘it’s only one option of 5, give it a shot’ don’t perhaps realise the hours, days of work it takes to prep for the tests and interview. It takes over your life. Not to be entered into lightly, and only for those who are absolutely passionate that it’s for them!

I do agree that it isn't for everyone, and I certainly don't think kids should feel pressure to apply for Oxbridge just because they happen to be very able.

My degree was from Cambridge, and I always kind of assumed that my very bright dd would probably end up applying for Oxbridge as well - she had straight 9s at GCSE, a genuine passion for her chosen subject and very much struck me as the type that might thrive in that environment. Plus she had visited a few times during her childhood and had very much envisaged herself in that world. However, after we went to the Cambridge open day, she realised that it really wasn't right for her - she loved the environment but she really didn't like the course or the way they approached her subject. And after a bit of research, she realised that the Oxford course was very similar. So in the end, she decided that she didn't want to apply to either. And that was fine by me, as there are many other good universities available and I could see that the Oxbridge options in her chosen subject simply weren't right for her/didn't really offer much with regard to the aspects of the subject that she was really passionate about.

So I think it ultimately comes down to what the young person actually wants. If they are eager to give it a go, then absolutely support them while managing expectations and ensuring that they don't fixate too much on that one option. If they conclude that it isn't right for them, then regardless of how bright they are, or how unblemished their academic record is etc, then they shouldn't feel under pressure to apply just because their school thinks they would have a decent shot at it. It isn't for everyone, and there are plenty of other great options available.

Has your DD started looking at the courses and the different colleges? She firstly needs to make sure the courses are what she actually wants to do and will interest her, and secondly to find some colleges she feels she'd thrive in - they all have different characters.

She is more likely to be successful if she can decide between Oxford and Cambridge, and then have specific colleges in sight. Her initial college of choice might not be where she ends up, but she needs her mind to be focused rather than thinking broadly of 'Oxbridge'.

I completely agree with @Onthesofawithmydog that unless the candidate is an absolute genius (and perhaps even then) the application process does have to be taken seriously and prepared for, and there's little point in just giving it a go and seeing what happens. DS had a few friends who did that and as a teacher I have also known a few students do it, none of them successfully. Obviously, preparing is no guarantee of success and disappointment is also something to be prepared for.

Having said that, the preparation doesn't have to be anything more complicated than reading LOTS or even listening to podcasts, certainly for non-stem subjects. Essay competitions are not necessary (obviously some students enjoy them regardless) and an EPQ just adds unnecessary work pressure to an already busy time and won't make success more likely. My ds got into Oxford last year to read history and his prep was reading and podcasts, which he had been doing anyway as he is totally passionate about his subject. In Our Time is his most-listened to show, and he still listens to relevant episodes as part of his course now. He did do every past paper he could access for the HAT and also made some of his own from his own books and he aced that, but they don't use it anymore.

Far more important than an EPQ is spending Y12 making sure predicted grades will be stellar and impressing teachers, who are asked to rank the applicant in the year group. Also, having a really strong Y12 gives a little bit of leeway for the autumn term of Y13 which will be when most subject tests are done if applicable, the application finalised - PS and selecting written work if needed, and then interview prep. It's a hard time and I don't agree with the PP who said the students benefit from the process even if they don't get in. I mean they might, but it makes an already stressful and busy time even harder and if they're not sure it's what they want they are better off not putting themselves through it in most cases.

@pinotnow and @Onthesofawithmydog my reading of the OP was that it wasn’t a question about an unprepared application, but more a question about whether the GCSE grades made an application pointless, and she should perhaps gently discourage her.

My perspective is that if she wants to go then she should be encouraged (with some caveats), and with that said you both provide helpful information to support that. First, that passion for the subject can be more appealing to admission tutors than stellar GCSEs. Second, that if you do want to go, the process does add an additional level of prep and effort. I totally agree with you both that applying with no consideration of the supracurriculars or the entrance tests (where there are some) is highly unlikely to be worthwhile. I do also think it is hard when it becomes someone’s sole focus because not getting in can be devastating.

I think Oxbridge look for a deep interest and outstanding ability in a subject area. Does she have that?

my point was really about my dd’s friend who had lower gcse grades but an intense passion for her subject compared to my dd who had higher grades. So I think we are in agreement that if you have passion for her subject that is way more important than grades

What stood out to me in your post was the bit about your DD being quite anxious and sensitive, I think that is also a factor to consider. My college was big on Oxbridge and lot of us got offers so I know a fair number of people who went and I don’t really know anyone who came out of an undergraduate course emotionally unscathed.

hopefully it’s changed in recent years but I do think the specific student experience is also something to consider - shouldn’t put her off applying but should be taken it into account. Obviously I’m sure a lot of people are ok as undergrads but it’s very intense.