Conservatoire standard / Univ ensemble opps

[AlwaysaLittleBitTired]

DD is in Y12 and considering Conservatoire vs University for music. 3 As at A level (including music) is attainable for her in theory. Unfortunately, covid years delayed her formal practical assessments and she is only now about to take her G7 practical (ABRSM). At the point of application she won't be near to taking her G8, although could push to get ready for that by next spring (meaning it's then also out of the way before A level exams next summer).

Any experience out there for conservatoire applications with only G7 done? (She has G6 ABRSM Distinction, and is trying hard to do the same for G7 but is having the usual pre-exam wobble about the likelihood of that).

She's convinced herself that most of the Cons are out of reach, as she isn't at the right standard and plays a very popular wind instrument, so is looking at Universities that have strong performance opportunities in ensembles (that don't also require 'at least' G8/Diploma level qualifications). Her heart really lies with playing in ensembles.

I guess the questions are whether conservatoires are really out of reach at undergraduate stage if she shows potential, but isn't quite up to the technical standard; and does anybody have knowledge of universities that have really great ensemble opportunities for wind players? We've read the blurb on the websites, but what is it really like?

Thanks

I don't have any skin in the game, as neither of my DC have applied for music, so other contributors will be better informed. However, my two DC are musical and have many musical friends. Three friends have offers for conservatoires - they have already done their ASRM in their first instrument. A couple of friends applied for music at university. These tend to be much less about performance and more study of music. One friend with offers for music at uni has just completed grade 8 in their first instrument.
Both of my DC have applied for STEM degrees but at unis where there is a lot of music performance as they want to carry on playing in ensembles and orchestra etc. I would go to some open days and ask specifically about music groups and you will quickly get a feel about music opportunities, either for music students or just those who wish to play for fun. At universities we visited, we were told that you need to be XX standard to audition for the orchestra etc. or apply for music or choral scholarships. Some universities have hook ups with conservatoires, such as Imperial/RCM and Manchester/RNCM. I would go and visit as many conservatoires and universities as possible and ask these questions direct. Good luck and wish your DD all the very best.

Conservatoires aren't necessarily interested in music grades per se but they are very interested in performance.

So if she does want that I wouldn't focus on passing the grades but improving her playing.

King's college London have a good music degree which my son did and they have a tie up with RCM to offer individual lessons as part of a performance module. You need to apply and they give it to the most motivated students.

There are a lot of ensembles, also a jazz club with band/big band/jam sessions and also musical theatre and opera opportunities.

Conservatoires offer advice auditions. You do have to pay, but if you can afford it, doing one at the place nearest to you might help you gauge how realistic that is.

To get into a conservatoire on a wind instrument you’d really need to be grade 8 standard (not necessarily taking the exam, but being that standard) by age 13/14. So it seems like a conservatoire might be out of reach, but as a PP says, a consultation lesson would tell you more

I agree with the advice about a consultation lesson. A y12 student of mine has had consultation lessons at 3 different conservatoires - she is also a woodwind player of a very popular instrument. However, she took g8 in around y9/10 and got a distinction recently in her diploma. Today I asked her if she was absolutely sure about a conservatoire degree as she is more than capable of a university degree, but she wants the BMus from a conservatoire.

Perhaps your DD may be best served by taking a gap year, getting her grade 8 but simultaneously putting in uni applications. Are there adult groups around that she could join? If she plays clarinet, has she ever played bass or E flat instruments, or if it's flute, the piccolo? We can borrow them from our local music hub, so my y12 in the 1st paragraph has played a term on bass clarinet and is now also learning saxophone, playing both alto and baritone.

If your daughter will be taking grade 8 before the offer turns unconditional, then it is definitely worth applying. Does she also have Grade 5 theory as that is all usually a condition of entry? My DD went to Leeds Conservatoire - she passed Grade 8 that summer and had the theory grade by then too. There is always an audition process and it’s worth calling the admissions departments to sound them out.

My DD is applying for conservatoires in October for 2025 entry. The popularity of the instrument will have a bearing as they only take a certain number of each instrument to balance ensembles. I would say focus on playing standard rather than exam as it goes almost entirely on audition. Some have set pieces to choose from, check the websites. Depends if the grade 7 is ' just about there' or comfortable and already playing grade 8 level repertoire as well. I heard a flautist play at another local high school who applied in October and didn't get in. They were definitely only just grade 7 and very nervous performing. Definitely have an advice lesson and consider a gap year if conservatoire is the dream, several of dds friends are doing that to earn money and focus on getting their playing in the best place. Look out for every opportunity to perform - music festivals/ competitions are often in march, entered in November/ December. Look at NYO inspire ( grade 6-8, for state school pupils, free to attend) Look at royal Welsh college as we felt it was quite nurturing and slightly less ' cut and thrust ' than the impression of some London ones, many of the teachers are the same though. Although they are in the bad books as have just cut their junior department.
I went to a uni with great ensembles, you could do an ma or bmus there so there were plenty of good musicians but loads of opportunities. Look at the music society social media etc. There will also be local amateur ensembles probably wherever you go. Lots more advice on the extra curricular music thread from people who already have kids at conservatoire, we're very friendly. Good luck!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/extra_curricular_activities/5036199-spring-summer-24-music-thread?page=1

If you can afford it then go for a consultation.

Conservatoires won't care what grade exam she has taken but she will be expected to demonstrate that she is playing to at least Grade 8 standard at audition. Royal Northern even has test pieces that they set that have to be performed.

Back in the day my husband took a gap year to prepare for his conservatoire auditions/get himself up to standard. He was a late starter.

My own son was also a late starter. He didn't take up the piano until age 14 and by the time of his applications he was around Grade 7 standard so he only applied to places that didn't require Grade 8. Leeds Conservatoire however (where he ended up) offer an integrated foundation year for those not quite up the standard yet for whatever reason. Leeds is more known for it's pop/jazz courses rather than classical (it offers classical but it's widely thought not t o be quite on a par with some of the other conservatoires for classical) but several of their graduates are doing well.

DS1 took a gap year after school which improved his playing enormously. He applied to conservatoires and universities and did get his conservatoire place (piano). None of us knew if he was good enough to get in hence applying for both.

DS2 is now doing music at uni, and plans to go to conservatoire for postgrad (conducting).
So OP, your dd has plenty of options to consider. I'd just encourage her to play as much and as widely as possible in the meantime.

I'd say have an advice lesson if possible. Mine got grade 8 distinction in year 11 and hasn't done a music exam since, he's in his second year at conservatoire. If she definitely wants to go to a conservatoire she could take a year out to get to standard- it's not uncommon at all.

I think with a popular wind instrument you'd need to be a minimum of grade 8 distinction to be in with a chance, possibly even ARSM diploma.

Some of the best musicians and teachers in the country who are academically clever did a music degree at a highly regarded university then went on to do their masters in performance at a conservatoire, so it's another route she could go down if she meets the standard

My relative was given offers for five conservatoires , starting this September. He had been having lessons with the same (good) local teacher up till grade 7. He then transferred to a teacher who knows about conservatoires and teaches him to a much higher standard. He got a high score grade 8.
It involves more travelling and the lessons are more expensive but it has definitely been worth the effort . He has really enjoyed them and has learnt such a lot.
So my advice is to make sure your DD has a really good teacher who knows how to prepare her.

I can recommend Uni of Birmingham for music opportunities whether or not you are studying g music. Huge variety and high standards.

Some great advice there, thank you all so much for taking the time to respond. She is playing some G8 repertoire now, but those blasted covid years certainly took their toll in terms of opportunity and tuition, and she started out with a poor tutor. She has a great tutor now, and we also have access to another who can provide more tailored tuition which I think we'll pursue.

She plays in numerous ensembles - one conducted by an RNCM tutor - but I do wonder whether a University degree with good opportunities, and then perhaps a postgrad at conservatoire, would be the best option for her. A year out isn't what she's looking for.

We looked at LCon actually, and she really liked it. Me not so much, but it's her decision and it was the first she had visited.

Good luck to those who mentioned their own applications...such a lot of pressure for them all.

Conservatoire is very competitive but instrument type matters too. At grade 8 standard many still do not get a place whereas university bmus will snap them up. Cardiff is pretty good for a university degree as a musical city, and if opportunity arises there's a direct bus to London too. Fairly reasonable living costs there as well

Depending on academic grades there are some universities (Manchester, Birmingham & one in London) who share tuition with the nearby conservatoire.

Taking a gap year is v common to gauge. It’s worth having a go without doing so, after the consultation, but if not successful then going for a second try. Old school friend did that and was successful years ago, another friend’s DD who was mid COVID years, took a year, worked a normal job and worked on her instrument and is now about to finish her first year. She was lacking the performance aspect due to lockdowns but the year off got her where she needed to be

My DS is going to a conservatoire this Sept. He compared Uni versus Conserv and decided on the latter for a number of reasons. He spoke to a number of students who had done music at Uni and they just didn’t seem to have the same exposure to projects and access to the same level of facilities. The 3 offers my DC received were all based on portfolio, music CV, references then audition or interview. However, my DC is doing composition. He does play a number of instruments and has grade 8 in a couple, but this is not really relevant to his degree. I guess what I am trying to contribute here is that we spent a lot of time researching, talking to students and teachers about Conserv vs Uni and decided the first was the best route.

@SnuffyAndBigBird My child is interested in composition too. We are looking at Unis now for next year. Facilities and access to composition and production modules seems to vary a lot. Which unis did you look at? We were thinking one with links to a conservatoire would be beneficial.

My DC looked at;
Royal Birmingham
Roysl Manchester
Guildhall
Uni of Sussex (Guildford?)
Durham Uni
Oxford

Not sure if they were all for composition. He looked at a few different options.

DC only looking at Uni courses as interest is mostly in the technical analysis, composition, science links and ensemble playing. Doesn't want big city. Oxbridge, Durham, York, Birmingham, Cardiff, Southampton, Royal Holloway, Surrey, Bangor all visited and in contention (and now confused!). So advice welcome. But would recommend all to OP for a look.

I definitely think she should go for a consultation lesson. The standard is extremely high, especially the more popular woodwind instruments. Distinction grade 8 standard is the minimum (does not necessarily have to have done the exam but the playing standard must be that at least).
She will be competing against people from all over the UK who will have reached grade 8 standard at a younger age as well as against people from other countries.

Once she has had the consultation lesson you will have more information about whether she has any chance at all, whether a year out would be beneficial or whether she should rethink.

There are plenty of universities where she could go and still have excellent opportunities to play in ensembles. Birmingham is supposed to be very good. I went to York to study another subject but had endless opportunities to play my instrument in excellent groups both within and without the music department.

My DD was at a conservatoire open day and they said for the wind department they generally only take a couple of each instrument, max 4 ( five if exceptional circumstances) as otherwise they won't get enough opportunities. You can be good enough, but there be others ahead of you which is hard. You can get online consultation lessons at some I think.

I agree she should focus on playing standard rather than taking grade 8. She doesn't need grade 8 as such, it's the standard that she needs, iyswim? Focusing too much on exam prep can take away time from developing technique and gaining performance experience, which would be more useful to her right now.

I'm sorry to say this, but if her teacher isn't already giving her clear and targeted advice on what to do right now - what the entry requirements actually mean in practice; whether to take grade 8 or not; where her level is compared to others who will be applying; what aspects of her technique she needs to improve; how to get consultation lessons and who with; what sort of chance she stands overall - she's not with the right teacher, and for a popular instrument, it's really crucial to be appropriately prepared. At Y12 it's rather late for her to be looking at swapping to someone else - most prospective entrants will have been with a 'serious' teacher for much longer.

It's worth bearing in mind, for popular instruments you should really view grade 8 standard as the bare minimum level before they'll be willing to audition you, but in actual fact, at the high-ranked institutions at least, those they pick will tend to be a long way beyond this and will have strong technique coupled with extensive experience. They don't want to have to put remedial work in on somebody whose technique isn't up to scratch, and for the popular instruments, they get so many applicants, anyone who needs remedial work unfortunately isn't really in the running.

If she wants to go for it, it would be worth making sure she has a teacher who's competent to prepare for conservatoire entry, and really focusing on making sure her technique is strong. Consider a year out as that's a year of solid practice. Otherwise, by the sound of it she'd be better going down the university route.