Conservatoire standard / Univ ensemble opps

[AlwaysaLittleBitTired]

DD is in Y12 and considering Conservatoire vs University for music. 3 As at A level (including music) is attainable for her in theory. Unfortunately, covid years delayed her formal practical assessments and she is only now about to take her G7 practical (ABRSM). At the point of application she won't be near to taking her G8, although could push to get ready for that by next spring (meaning it's then also out of the way before A level exams next summer).

Any experience out there for conservatoire applications with only G7 done? (She has G6 ABRSM Distinction, and is trying hard to do the same for G7 but is having the usual pre-exam wobble about the likelihood of that).

She's convinced herself that most of the Cons are out of reach, as she isn't at the right standard and plays a very popular wind instrument, so is looking at Universities that have strong performance opportunities in ensembles (that don't also require 'at least' G8/Diploma level qualifications). Her heart really lies with playing in ensembles.

I guess the questions are whether conservatoires are really out of reach at undergraduate stage if she shows potential, but isn't quite up to the technical standard; and does anybody have knowledge of universities that have really great ensemble opportunities for wind players? We've read the blurb on the websites, but what is it really like?

Thanks

But equally, there's no harm in applying - a friend of DD got in more on potential as the trajectory they were on showed they were improving rapidly. They aren't looking for protégé material from everyone.

@Applejill How did you find Durham? We are visiting next month but we have been told course a bit "dry" whatever that means. Looking for a good mix of academic with composition/technology/production.

A younger relative did a conservatoire degree. It was very hard to get a place and she played 2 instruments one to grade 8 and had been very music focussed for many years. It helps to play an unpopular instrument and to really enjoy performance.
My relative eventually decided a career of performing wasn't for her after getting her degree. It is a competitive poorly paid career. Does she definitely want a performing career or a job doing something else and just playing for fun in amateur orchestras on an evening? Few people can make a career from performing.

@pencilornotes feels like a good academic degree, possibly closer to the Oxbridge courses than others (and actually possibly a better fit here than either O or C). However, yes, can imagine it being described as a bit dry by some. Not great in tech I would say.

I agree with the parental suggestion of perhaps best to do a music degree first and then if still interested the conservatory after. My children's father did that - BMus - he had grade 8 and ARCO (organist) and later after starting his degree FRCO. In the end he did the PGCE after and is a teacher. I also know a lot of lawyers (I am a lawyer) with BMus from a very academic university who then did law after. I did a lot of music at university and have 4 Grade 8s but have just kept it as a hobby all my life.

It's great she loves to play in ensembles and is keen to do music. Conservatoires definitely have a lot more going on in that regard, but she should try to talk to music students at universities she likes, and see if they feel they are offered enough. My DD will be starting conservatoire in September, and the thing to keep in mind is that auditions come up really quickly once the autumn term starts (Novemberish). So she should be working with a teacher ASAP who really knows how to prepare her for auditions. Grades don't matter, but they care about good technique and polished performance of advanced repertoire. I agree with PP that it's a good idea to get consultation lessons. They will be able to give her specific advice on what she might need to work on and whether auditions this autumn are worth going for. The audition process is a LOT, so you don't want to put her through unless she gets feedback it's a good idea. If not, there's always next year!

DD is at a conservatoire. She applied on an instrument that she had been playing for a year (and was more like 6 months due to COVID lockdowns). She performed Grade 8 pieces that fell within the repertoire requirements for the auditions. However it was related to an instrument that she had got her grade on in year 8 so technical dexterity was already there. She was offered a place and a scholarship at all the conservatoires she applied to so being a good grade 8 player can be enough.

Just an update....

Grade 7 Practical results are in, and she only dropped a couple of marks in her performance pieces. Everything else was good enough and she was awarded a Distinction. We're feeling a little more comfortable about it as she can now fully focus on her G8 repertoire and skills.

She's really keen on Conservatoire having now visited 2. God help us all for this next few months!

Excellent

Brilliant, well done. Seeing where she would like to go will help motivation and she can get going on Audition requirements now. Wishing her well.

Fantastic and the very best of luck!

Congratulations on the distinction! Mine is at RCM so feel free to fire questions

It is interesting for RCM to recruit a student with a grade 8 standard. It is a global No.1 in the music and performing arts. Grade 8 might not even be the standard for the Junior course.

It's a benchmark but not to be taken as gospel. They are more likely to take a basoonist who plays a Grade 8 piece with impeccable musicianship than they are to take a flautist who plays a diploma level piece to a middling standard.

That's sensible. There should not be such a thing as grade 8 pieces. Top musicians even play grade 7 or lower "grade" pieces in a concert.

It depends very much on the instrument, though. There are some for which recruitment is a real struggle and a grade 8 can be sufficient to get you in. Many posters on this thread are talkimg ss though the instrument is irrelevant and giving anecdotes that are unlikely to be applicable to the OP's daughter's situation, as the OP has already stated she plays a popular wind instrument - in this type of scenario it would be extremely hard for a candidate to demonstrate a type of potential that outstrips the other candidates who are already achieving at a considerably higher high level.

More to the point it was one that was difficult to learn and she was of an advanced diploma standard on two other instruments one of which was closely related. By the time she arrived (9 months after the audition) she was already playing fellowship diploma repertoire on the new instrument. RCM were not the only leading conservatoire to offer her a place and a substantial scholarship. Its not what you play but how you play that matters and there are quite a lot of profs now who are very jaded by hearing applicants playing a shedload of technical flash with no musicality at all.

A friend’s son got in to study traditional music with grade 7 but it was an uncommon instrument and he had only started playing it 18 months previously (he also had grade 8 another two instruments not relevant to the course - both completely different types of instrument).

Musicality is definitely important. Mine got offers from a number of conservatoires all with scholarships. He was grade 8 aged 15 so late by many standards. Hasn’t done a diploma and probably won’t. But he does have a sort of instinctive way of playing although he knows others who are technically more precise. It’s often a case of what they’re looking for and how you’ll fit in their ensembles etc.

Had a further chat with DD about this. Her take is that the conservatoires are looking for musicality and the ability to work collaboratively. This is more important in departments where chamber and orchestral work is important - eg percussion rather than piano. At the end of the day when students leave and head out into the big wide world all of their competition can play the notes too so it boils down to what you do with them and personality.

You could ask your DD if RCM has more piano or percussion students. Musicality is crucial for a conservatory student, as are the technical requirements. It's interesting to see that people in this forum often place musicality and technique at opposite ends of the spectrum. In reality, both are fundamental for a musician. You will never see a top musician who lacks technical superiority.

Agreed but you'd never pay to see a professional musician who lacks musicality..... There is a big problem atm with younger and younger children knocking off their grades at earlier and earlier ages and sadly so many of them are not musical just clever. IME conservatoires are looking for a balance and to a certain extent feel that they can teach technique but can't teach musicality - you have it or you don't. Also children who are rushed through ever more demanding pieces in a tearing hurry usually do so to the detriment of technique. Its actually far easier to take a student who has got to Grade 8 on an hour or less of practice a day but has had a slower journey to get there as they had a good teacher who focused on good technique over flash (and these days people equate flash with technique when they're not the same thing at all). That student can then be taken on very quickly to more challenging repertoire when they suddenly have several hours a day to practice and have probably learnt to practice efficiently. Compare that with a student who has been hot housed to a high level of flash with poor technique and only achieved it by bashing away for 4 hours a day. First you need to take them back to basics technically to break all the bad habits. Then you can start reintroducing the challenging repertoire but it may well take them longer to learn it as the jump in practice time is less significant for them and they may not have learnt how to plan their time efficiently. SO they make slower progress or end up over practicing which can lead to burn out injury and stress. At the end of the 4 year degree they may well be less advanced than their fellow student who started with a lowly grade 8.

There's a reason why professors say they are looking most of all for potential at the age of 18.

Interesting you raise the question of student numbers for piano vs percussion. That is only part of the story as a lot of the piano students are international students paying international fees that the conservatoires need to keep afloat. Numbers of home students in the two departments are more even according to DD.

I agree with this! My DD will start RCM in September and in more than one consultation lesson she was told 'you have the bit that can't be taught' so clearly it's a thing. Our experience with the 'flash' kids is that their repertoire is very limited to the showy pieces and struggle to master other types of playing, such the classical concerto required at audition. They also often struggle with chamber music and basically anything where they are not the soloist. Music colleges really seem to prefer a well-rounded musician.

@sadiesara - congratulations to your DD - is she excited? Mine is just finishing off her third year and loving it! Do let me know if she has any questions as DD wold be happy to answer them.

Thank you, she's SO excited, it was her first choice and she's also really pleased with her new teacher. So great to hear your DD loves it. Good to know you're there re: any questions that come up. Right now she's just keen for more information to come through as far as her schedule and everything, but I don't think we'll hear any more until August. We don't live close to London so it will be a real adventure.