Advice on Modern Languages and Linguistics at Oxf

[TokyoBouncyBall]

DD is in Year 12 and after receiving a really good report (headed for all A stars and the pride of her French department) suddenly wants to apply to Oxford for French and Linguistics.

I know nothing, can you help. In particular, how hard is it to get in? Will her GCSE grades matter (the relevant ones are all As, sciences are 7,8). She has ADHD and is medicated, does this have any bearing on anything.

She's obsessive about sociolinguistics and is going to try and find a college with teaching staff who specialise in this, but what else should she do?

@law4569's DD is doing English (whether language or literature not known, but as she has talked about the teacher commenting on DD's flair for the subject, I suspect literature) A level. That she is doing English and has a flair for it will show the admissions tutors that English is a strong subject for her. In addition, English does not have a monopoly on demonstrating 'a willingness and ability...in writing and orally'. All her DD's A levels (English, economics, French and Spanish) have the potential to demonstrate those skills, with literature a major component of French, Spanish and, of course, English. In the face of that, the fact that her GCSE English grades are 7s and not 8s or 9s is really not a big deal.

Finally, 7 is a good grade. A student with all 7s-9s is is a straight A student. A clutch of 7-9 GCSEs and predicted A level grades at A or A star is a good starting point for an Oxford MFL application. @law4569's A level choices put her in a positive position because, unusually, she is studying two modern languages. Furthermore, she was awarded a 9 for her French and Spanish GCSEs.

What admissions departments also recognise is that substantial academic development takes place for most students during the two A level years. Paying too much attention to two or three grade 7 GCSEs could therefore result in restricting the shortlist unnecessarily if, for example, an applicant performs well at interview eg commenting on an unseen text in the target language. So I didn't and don't believe @law4569 does have a point.

Typo

So she’s on for A at A level in English? I did say I had not trawled back over the A levels. I did make it clear (I thought) thst other A levels would be good too. I’m perfectly well aware dc don’t have to do English A level. My DD didn’t. However if it’s Eng Lang it’s not literature heavy. I did say go ahead!

Thank you! I also would assume that the uni cares more about progression. Exactly - if they see that she's actually better at English in the interview than her gcse suggests surely that would override her results?

@law4569 The interview is only part of the process. There’s the tests, A level predictions, GCSEs, personal statement (yes it’s part of the interview) and assessment of suitability for their teaching methods which is difficult to quantify. I tend to think it’s engaging with the interviewers and making sure you can talk about the test translation etc. They want to know what else you have done to support your interest in the subject.

do you reckon a good interview is the deciding factor then?

she's on for an A* at a level ! so hopefully that makes up for her gcse grade... she just messed up the exams back in the day. She takes English literature! do you think that's good enough?

It's useful to break the application process down so your DD can focus on one aspect at a time, and have in her mind what the university will be doing as the process progresses. It's not as simple as saying that one factor overrides another because each applicant is different, and each applicant cohort is different.

School confirms predicted A level grades. If these are minimum 3 x A, it's worth your DD applying.

DD to complete written application via UCAS, the goal being for her dedication to and enthusiasm for her subject to shine through. NB school to support, preferably a teacher with experience of supporting Oxbridge applications.

University assesses all written applications in the round and decides which candidates to interview. In the case of MFL, this is about half, a high number in comparison to many subjects

If invited to interview DD to prepare, supported by school eg mock interview, analysis of unseen texts in target language, again with the focus on demonstrating her dedication to the subject

DD attends interview

University decides which candidates should receive an offer (likely to be 3 x A) based on interviews and written applications, and issues offer

There are so many variables that admissions teams consider that it's not possible to predict what will make the difference between one candidate receiving an offer and another not. Remember too that the admissions team has information on all the candidates while you have sight only of your DD's application. What we do know is that the admissions team will be asking for each candidate: 'Would this person benefit from coming to Oxford?'

Our role as parents of 16/17 year olds is a tricky one because we can support and encourage but the process of university application is theirs to own. My DD asked for my help with reviewing her personal statement (and made changes based on my feedback), reviewing her written work (she made basic errors when she began A level) and discussing points of grammar (I have A level French). School coached her on interview skills.

How can A* not be good enough when it's the highest grade!

What are her other predicted grades?

I don't know but since she got 7s in English/history people are saying it looks bad and isn't worth it. She's predicted a economics, a spanish (she achieved 38/40 in her speaking exam) and an a in French (she also got 36/40 in her speaking)

'People' are wrong. Ignore them. It only looks 'bad' if 'people' think every student at Oxford has grade 9 for all their GCSEs. They don't. If you are asking for opinions of all and sundry, you will be asking some people who don't know anything about Oxford. No wonder you are not thinking in a focussed way. Too much advice is pulling you in all directions and queering the pitch. The decision is your DD's to make. Never mind what 'people' think.

Here's the one question your DD should ask herself:

'I am predicted an A* and 3 x As at A level. Is it worth me applying?'

BTW A at A level in languages is very unusual for non-mother tongue speakers so her As are saying more than you might think. My DD's only A grade was for French, the subject she studied at Oxford. Music and English Literature were both As*.

She is interested in applying and has the grades to apply. If she doesn't apply now, she will wonder for the rest of her life whether she should have done. Why burden herself in that way?

Does her school think she should apply?

You are expending a huge amount of energy on this, to little effect as far as I can see. All your DD needs to decide at this stage is whether to apply. She has a good case to make. The consensus on this thread is that she should apply. Rather than worry about her grade 7s, which can't be changed, she could ask herself: 'What's the worst thing that can happen if I apply?' The answer: She doesn't get an interview, or gets an interview but not an offer and goes to another excellent university instead.

If she were to be questioned on her grade 7s (which is an outside possibility only because GCSEs are water under the bridge and the interviewers are interested in potential) at interview she has her answer ready: 'I wasn't performing at my best when I sat those exams and I won't deny I felt frustrated with myself when I collected my results. However, A level English literature has really stretched me over the last four terms and I feel sense of achievement that my ability to work with literary texts has progressed to such an extent that I am predicted an A*.'

My school encouraged me to apply to Cambridge in the days when there was still an entrance exam. I passed the exam and was interviewed but was unsuccessful. My disappointment was short-lived. I went to UCL, my second choice, and loved it. All these years later, I am glad I applied to Cambridge because it set me on a path of pushing myself and being open to new experiences. Similarly, your DD loses nothing by applying. I sincerely hope she does.

Formatting

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/james-rutland-6b772b262_you-do-not-need-all-9s-to-oxbridge-not-share-7373112990176419840-5cHR/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_android&rcm=ACoAAAQH5TMBL4KIsXMM-uAeKWRrMazfj1MGWWU

Worth reading to get your DD's GCSE results into context. The poster tutors for Oxbridge entrance.

@IdaGlossop Anyone who needs tutoring probably isn’t good enough! Of course someone running a business touts for business! Very few dc have all 9 grades and everyone knows that’s not necessary but 3 gcses at 8 snd 3 at 9 is light and you can look at Oxford stats for that. This doesn’t mean dc should not try but pretending that’s a great set of gcses for Oxford is a bit misleading. As it’s MFLs there might be more flexibility but essentially it’s an essay subject so written and oral work is key and I think dd has a 7 in history too so the essay subjects are not strong.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner The reason I have shared the post is because it provides an inside view on GCSE results, not because I think this DD needs a tutor. I do agree that tutoring, a big industry, shouldn't be necessary.

Plenty of people do assume you need all 9s for Oxford. I have not said this DD has a great set of GCSE results for Oxford. I have said that with her A level predicted grades, it's reasonable for her to give it a go, which is the majority view here.

I don't agree with you that overall, this DD's essay subjects are not strong. They are OK at GCSE and potentially excellent at A level. Three of her four A levels require her to write essays about literature and she is predicted A or A star in all of them. What that shows, in particular the A star for Eng lit, is that she has made lots of progress between GCSE and A level. If, for example, she was strong at interview, with lots of additional language activities and with an excellent personal statement, the 7s would not dominate the more recent information.

Typo

no no shes predicted 3 A STAR I am unsure why when I used the asterisk it turned bold

Thank you! I agree! I think average gcses - which for French + Italian at Oxford, a boy got in this year with 9999888775 from a top 14 private school (including a 7 in English language ). I get that my dd doesn't have great gcses for her context because of the avergage humanities but correct me if Im wrong - his gcse's aren't great either for his context (if 70 boys got 7 nines and more) and they still let him in (with an average mlat and ps). I think maybe it's still possible for DD to get in if she out proves the tutors and shows her English skills have improved. Although yes this wouldn't work with most subjects, a 94% offer rate surely means they care more about interview than anything and a tutor did say in reality the interview is the most important part. and yes she's predicted 3 a stars and an A. Although her teachers are going to predict her an a* in September after seeing her improvement in the last few weeks.

As I have said, I think your DD needs to take this step by step. The next step is to decide whether to apply. There are too many variables (also listed above at length) for you to be able to predict what will happen once she has put the application in. Once more, you are tying yourself in knots seeking for a certainty which is not attainable at this stage. Really, OP, this is quite easy. Does she have the grades to make an application sensible? Yes, she does. You are making it incredibly complicated. Have you been able to shift your DD 's thinking based on what you have read here, or has it made you worry and fret even more?

@law4569 Definitely your DD should apply if she likes the Oxford course and teaching and examination system (whole MFL degree result is based on the exams in the last term of the 4th year- Finals).

GCSEs provide a floor ie need to be good enough which your DD's are so please simply park this matter. Write yourself a note saying they are good enough and put in an envelope and put in a drawer. I don't think admissions tutors spend masses of time looking at what grade was achieved in what subject. (BTW My DD's GCSEs was Covid year (2020) so not really comparable).

Instead I suggest your DD spends this summer on lots of additional literature reading in French and Spanish and showing her passion for the subject and drafting an excellent personal statement. Also listening to podcasts and radio in French and Spanish is a good tip. With no tests and essays to submit the interview will become more important - Admissions tutors will be looking for passion, flair and potential as well as teachability within the Oxford tutorial system.

Your DD clearly has excellent predicted A Level grades. Achieving A stars in humanity subjects and languages are tricksy and depend on the day which is why Oxford only make AAA offers for humanities and MFL.

70 boys doing MFLs didn’t get 7 x 9 grade or more! How do you know his ps was average? Did you sit on the admissions team? MFL is not a 94% offer rate. It’s 40%. That’s higher than it was. Not long ago it was 33%. Other degrees are less than 10%.

It’s also true to say lots of A level predictions are incorrect and I do agree she should have a go. I think she’s got to want it though and realise it’s a lot of essays!

So her case is even stronger. 3 x A star and an A is fantastic. The asterisk is a command to embolden. I've fallen foul of it too.

I meant 70 boys in HIS YEAR GROUP got 7 nines or more and he got 4x9s,3x8s,2x7s and 1x5. I know his personal statement was average because his mum literally told me it was but he was too 'lazy' to change it. (it was about mainly management with some French) + mlat was below average interview offers. and again. I meant 94% interview rate

really? do higher predicted increase chances?

@law4569 Dc need to be the full package. They look at everything and A levels are just one part. Higher predications are obviously good but if you look at the info MFL dept puts on the web site, it’s far more than this because so many dc have high predicted grades. It’s important to do well in the tests and interview. They are looking for dc who will thrive with the style of teaching and pace of work at Oxford. So being bright is a given really.

@law4569 no!!! Please read this whole thread again and take on board what people are saying. I started to comment because I have been in the same position as you with my DD and I am really doing my best along with others to give sensible advice to help you and your DD but most of what is being said is not hitting the mark.

Here are the key points again. Oxbridge entry is not a science: do this and you will be offered a place. Instead, there are numerous variables, most of them out of the applicant's control. You cannot have the certainty you seem to want for your DD in advance of applying. The only way your DD is going to know if she can study MFL at Oxford is by applying and awaiting the outcome, like everyone else who applies.

My comment is merely stating the absolutely obvious, as a courtesy: that 3 A stars and an A will make a bit more of an initial impact than 1 A star and 3 As, but any combination of As and A stars shows that the applicant is bright.