Investment Banking Internships....

[BaconAndAvocado]

....wasn't quite sure where to post this!

DS1 is in 2nd year at Manchester Uni studying Chem Eng.

He has decided he wants to go into Investment Banking ( apparently not as unusual a leap from Chem Eng as it sounds - lots of Maths involved!)

He is in the process of applying for Spring Weeks which could then lead to a Summer internship.

Does anyone have any experience of this?

My DD went along that route. He needs to know it is massively competitive to get onto any of them. He will need to have things on his CV that make him stand out, incl. excellent A level results, hopefully a 1st in his 1st year results and preferably some relevant work experience. He will have to do well in the online assessment (he should be ok if he is good at maths). Then there will be a telephone interview. If he goes to the next stage, he will have all day interviews. Then the 10 week summer internship is really a 10 week job interview. It is tough. Good luck.

Thanks jeanne

Yes to excellent A level results, 1st in his 1st year but No to the work experience.

He's applied to 13 banks and has so far been accepted at Nomura but got rejected from Morgan Stanley after the 2nd phone interview. Hasn't heard from the other 11 yet!

Sounds promising.

DS2 and lots of his friends did these internships. Multiple applications/ phone interviews/ assessment days etc and the internships themselves are long, much much longer than law vac schemes. Anyone doing a banking internship has to kiss goodbye to a summer vac with feet up in the sun! STEM is good (DS did History).

Yes, as he's so focussed he doesn't seem to mind missing a summer holiday! Very unlike my good self at his age

Tell him to take the Nomura one!

If he can get a summer internship, it will really open the door to a graduate position.

Good for him for having the focus - DS really worked hard to get something, but it worked out in the end!

My dh arranges interns for his department of an investment bank. A lot of people will come forward suggesting people who have approached them directly. Is there anyone that attended his secondary school that is now in investment banking that he could approach? Dh always fast tracks anyone that attended his secondary school (mostly because it’s a state school in a deprived area and not many people come from that background).

Investment banks also do employment days at various different universities.

Nomura may not be his top choice though. Better to wait until the others have had a chance to reply if it isn't.

Do the banks do presentations at Manchester? I know that’s how my DH made the decision as to which bank he wanted to work for as work life balance and culture varies from bank to bank. All will be tough but some are really really demanding (Goldman and City are the worst for that afaik).

He sounds like he’s got the right approach though, if you can get the summer internship it’s a very good stepping stone to a grad position. Does he know which area of investment banking he wants to work in?

I know my DH often likes people who don’t haven't done the traditional ‘investment banking’ degrees (Economics etc). Obviously intelligence is top priority, I’d say quick mental arithmetic and ability to make logical estimations to problem solve (a lot of those how many ping pong balls can you fit in a telephone box type interview questions) is very important. But also someone who is likeable (client relationships are key) and able to show some initiative. So make sure your son is good at showing those skills too. Good luck, 14 years ago my DH worked his absolute arse off to get a summer internship - more than most did to get a grad place, but it was worth it.

Allthebest Do you have any personal experience of Nomura?

SwanVests as far as I'm aware, he doesn't know anyone from his secondary school who went on to pursue Investment Banking.

Doublechoc he belongs to the Finance Society at Uni and has been to quite a few networking events.
I think it's trading that he wants to go into. We're quite surprised at this as he isn't a "Jack the Lad" type young man at all! Unless that perception of trading is wrong?

Thanks all for your positive comments

BaconandAvocado No personal experience but DS is also considering this as a field but is much younger!

Nomura is a very highly regarded company and one of the top in the field - up there with JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank etc. Bear in mind that Deutsche Bank has already announced job cuts etc and moving back to Frankfurt. If he has a firm offer I'd grab it!

Yes I was just going to say the same in terms of Brexit. DS2 was very clear in making choices and accepting an offer based on this.

I disagree about grabbing the first offer going though, since grad scheme jobs are so closely linked to these long internships. Hold out for the top choice and don't sell yourself short early if you hanker after somewhere which is taking a while.

Nomura is a very highly regarded company and one of the top in the field - up there with JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank etc.

As a former banker, I disagree with this. Nomura isn't "one of the top". They're not bad but they're not a major player. Same for Deutsche although Deutsche outrank Nomura. Shame as Deutsche used to be outstanding but have lost their edge over recent years.

Good places to work are Citi, BAML (Bank of America Merrill Lynch), Morgan Stanley (not an option now), JP Morgan, Credit Suisse. Also look at the more European banks such as BNP Paribas, UBS, HSBC. Keep away from RBS, RBC unless desperate. Goldmans used to be 'the' name but they've gone off the boil and are a lot less prestigious than they used to be.

Another option is to consider asset/investment/fund managers e.g. Black Rock. Keep away from brokers. They tend to be a bit more brutal and are very full-on. OP's son would probably arrive back home swearing like a trooper.

Languages are always helpful if you want to get into banking (shame so many kids don't persevere with languages at school) as the trading floor is usually very multi-national and some languages fit better with certain trading desks (for example, French is the native language of a lot of HSBC derivative traders as they have strong derivatives base in France after acquiring CCF in 2000).

As pp suggests, rake your own professional networks and connections for an 'in', wherever possible.

I know several people in IB and if a friend or relative came to me asking I would happily connect them (connect only - no promises made, but it is very much a who you know environment)

Actually the summer internships are not based on ‘who you know’ any longer. There is a very rigid application process.

When did you leave banking HundredMilesAnHour, was it within the past ten years, five years, year? Not sure your advice about who's a big shot tallies with word on the street these days among young bankers. I was a graduate trainee too but too long ago to be very useful to DS (although he's proved himself well able to sort himself out without out of date maternal advice :)). There's a lot of fluidity out there right now.

When did you leave banking HundredMilesAnHour, was it within the past ten years, five years, year?

I'm still in banking in a senior role, I just no longer work directly on the trading floor.

Ah ok your post said former banker, so I thought you were....a former banker :)

Just asked my DH to read this and give me some feedback. He said, unless there is a time limit on the Nomura offer wait until you have more in to decide. Realistically Nomura isn’t one of the best banks and he’d be better off with another if he can get it.

Secondly he said everyone who applies will have excellent grades and be at a good uni. Your son needs to have something that makes his CV stand out, be it relevant experience, volunteering abroad, excellent musician etc etc. Something that makes him different. Personally having spent time with the banking types I’d say if he was keen on either skiing or golf, mentioning that in his hobbies wouldn’t be a bad thing either (yes it’s sterotypical, but the stereotype is there for a reason!)

I don’t think traders are jack the lad types, my DH certainly isn’t. However, saying that a key part of the role for him is being the person that your clients want to call if they want to do a trade. That means being able to get on well with people is a pretty important skill, and one that is often lacking in the grads he sees. All of whom are highly intelligent, just not great with people.

Hope that helps.

Thanks everyone!

Some fantastic advice and tips which I will pass onto DS this weekend.

Regarding his CV, he does play golf but I'm not sure he's put that on there!
He belongs to a historical re-enactment society at Uni!

If he can, get those on the CV - golf playing is definitely prevalent in the industry! Both might be good talking points.

Bacon whatever it is that he does put it on there. Dh is always forwarding people for interviews that put chess down as an interest because he likes to have a game with them.

Nomura isn't one of the top banks and it can be hard culturally as still very japanese, I've friends who have really struggled there as hated the culture but for a first job, well, why not. Deutsche also not a top one. Citi, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America, Goldmans and maybe BNY are better.

One thing he needs to be very, very clear on is the kind of role he’s interested in in a bank. Broadly speaking, there is a huge distinction between front office and back office roles. Front-office means revenue-generating (sales, trading, etc), whereas back office means support functions (IT, accounting, risk management, compliance). Some consider risk management middle-office, but there really isn’t much of a difference. No one will admit it publicly and officially, but front office roles are better regarded and much better paid. Lots of people want to make the move from back to front, but very few ever manage to pull it off. This is not to say it’s a bad career choice, far from it – this is simply to say they’re different, and moving from one to the other is difficult (it’s much easier from front to back than viceversa).
To be clear, if he’s interested in front office, a front office internship at a second or third tier bank like Nomura is better than a back office internship in a top tier bank like Goldman.
Efinancialcareers has a student section with quite a lot of info. Also try wallstreetoasis, reddit etc.
Of course do distinguish between the official advertising guff and the ‘real’ story, which only insiders can tell you. No one is going to say openly: you know, in company X, department A is totally useless, they don’t count anything, while in company Y it’s the other way round and department A pretty much runs the show! :)