Compulsory immunisation

[Parker231]

“Health secretary Matt Hancock has said he is willing to look at "all options" to boost England's vaccination levels, including compulsory immunisation.

Mr Hancock told the BBC he did not want to "reach the point" of imposing jabs, but would "rule nothing out".

I hope this goes ahead. In the States you can’t start public state school without up to date vaccination records.

Obviously there would have to be medical exemptions. But so long as that is in place, I agree.

I disagree with this. What would be the punishment for non compliance? Arrested, Tied down and forcibly injected? The U.K. is better than that

I don't agree with absolute compulsion for any medical procedure.

But I wouid vigorously support the Australian system which cuts family benefits for those with unvaccinated DC (unless they have a medical exemption or are certified as following an approved catch-up programme)

And barring children from school doesn’t make vaccination compulsory. Many anti vaxxers are happily home schooler types, which takes them well off radar also, and punishes the children not the parents

Agree. Non vaccination puts everyone at risk. Sometimes there is a good medical reason why a child can't be vaccinated (and protecting those children is precisely why it's so important that everyone else is vaccinated!) but too often the decision is made from complete idiocy and ignorance.

I really hope common sense prevails to include not throwing away hard fought human rights. The medical profession does not always get things right which we have seen from scandals like vaginal meshes, contaminated blood, doctors killing patients (Harold Shipman, Dr Death or that hospital that is alleged to have killed old people) despite the checks and balances. It is unethical to medicate one person for another's benefit.

It is a slippery slope which can lead to a lot imagine if they insist on intimate examinations if you want the pill, forced flu vaccinations even though it makes some ill and they never get the flu anyway. Once you give the state control of your body you can never tell where it will lead to.

Also note that MMR contains live measles vaccine which means it's theoretical possible to catch vaccine induced measles.

Think carefully if you want the state to have control of what is injected into little ones from pharma who cannot be sued becuase they struck a deal with governments becuase previously they weren't making money due to all the lawsuits.

If the argument is for public safety then at least you should concede that the forced vaccinations should only be for communicable diseases and strip away the rest. This would mean the introduction of single vaccines in some cases.

Rant over.

I don't think a child's right to access schooling /education should be made conditional on their parent's decisions on health issues.

I do think that family benefits could be withheld from those who choose not to immunise (those who cannot be vaccinated would, as in Aus, be exempted)

In the 19th Century, smallpox vaccination was compulsory in England. Despite fines etc, there was local opposition, especially in Leicester. Which lead to the "Leicester method" - a system of case notification and compulsory isolation - at home or in dedicated isolation hospitals. Whilst this system did not prevent smallpox, it had some effect on controlling outbreaks. It was used during the WHO Smallpox Eradication Programme to manage outbreaks.

But this kind of approach requires a high level of active surveillance and the existence of isolation facilities or the support of home isolation. It all costs money. Vaccination is more cost effective. More importantly, it requires acceptance of compulsory isolation. I suspect that anti-vaxxers might find that unacceptable. Something, something "human rights". Something, something, "harmless childhood diseases" - qv the existence of "pox parties", where some deliberately expose their children to infectious diseases.

Public health education is probably the best option but it needs to learn lessons from the Wakefield scandal and subsequent drop in vaccination levels. It needs to be more savvy about countering misinformation put about by anti-vaxxers. The arguments for vaccination have changed. When I grew up, adult polio survivors were very visible. The complications of what are now vaccine preventable diseases happened. It was more of a no-brainer back then.

Freedoms are important for people on benefits too, surely!

It should be possible to convince people that immunisation is a good idea for all. That's miles better than having the state exercise coercive control.

The parents are free to decide whether or not to pay the price of their decision.

Only these rich enough not to receive CB would be unaffected. You could even make if only CB, and leave WTC and maybe reduced level CTC in place. Because it is the adults making the decisions, and so the adults (in terms of balancing the family budget) who work out if anti-vax is really a principle they valued when it costs them something.

A child needs education, and I thinknsate schooling should be open to all.

I agree wholeheartedly with Jenny. Thin end of the wedge in terms of rights over our own bodies, and there have been too many medical scandals - about treatments medics were 100% confident in - for me to think this is a good idea.

No they should not be compulsory. If vaccines are, why not extend to other socially 'preferred' behaviours? Vegetables are good for you, why not force 5 a day and have the vegetable police knocking on your door to check?

Joking aside, I'm not against vaccinations, but not keen on the number and frequency. For example, in 2018 there were 33 cases of Polio worldwide. It's been eradicated everywhere but Pakistan and Afghanistan (the WHO figures). Transmission is by direct exposure to the faeces or mucus of an infected person. So what are the chances of someone living in the UK being exposed to Polio? Virtually none. More likely to be hit by a car on the way to the GP than contracting polio. So why do we still regularly vaccinate children against it in the UK? Other diseases that we vaccinate against such as hepatitis or diphtheria are also uncommon and are often contracted due to unhygienic and unsanitary living conditions that aren't generally prevalent in the UK. Looking at data here (www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Diseases/Polio-SV40.aspx) it seems there are now far more people dying or being injured by the Polio vaccine than there are by the disease itself.

Secondly, vaccines aren't completely safe. The UK government recognises this by having a vaccine damage compensation scheme. So it becomes a case of weighing up the risks of any single jab.

I don’t think they should be compulsory. I do think we should encourage parents to make the “right” decision by withdrawing benefits such as free schooling unless children have been vaccinated. If children aren’t vaccinated then to protect the majority they shouldn’t be in close quarters with other children.

"If children aren’t vaccinated then to protect the majority they shouldn’t be in close quarters with other children."

I don't see the logic of this. If children are vaccinated then theoretically they are safe. If they are unvaccinated, then maybe there is the risk of contracting something, but surely the risks is to other children who'se parents have decided to take this risk?

Diphtheria still occurs in UK, usually transmitted from someone who acquired it abroad (it is a not unusual disease in several parts of Eastern Europe, with frequent outbreaks)

Vaccination means that it has remained at tiny numbers of cases. Which is a good thing. Because although very treatable with the right antibiotics, if you don't diagnose it in time, it'll probably kill you (whatever ABs you are given). And that's the crux of the risk - British doctors may never have seen a case and might miss it in those important early stages.

Polio - similar story. It's adusease what is mild in the majority, but life changing for some. Not one I would want to see back in larger outbreaks.

Vaccinations aren’t 100% effective, a vaccinated child can still catch a disease (albeit a milder dose). Plus there are children who for whatever reason can’t be vaccinated. So there are good reasons for excluding purposely unvaccinated kids.

"but surely the risks is to other children who'se parents have decided to take this risk?"

And to those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons
And those who have been vaccinated but it did not 'take' properly
To those too young to be vaccinated (14 babies died of whooping cough)
To those whose jab might have worn off
To those who have acquired a major immunity problem (including thise on certain types of cancer treatment)

Petra, do the unvaccinated ones pose a risk to those too young to receive vaccination? Do we spread the risk of measles, say to babies who can’t yet be vaccinated?
Also do unvaccinated children pose a risk to people with immune system defiiniencies?

With Polio specifically, 33 cases in a world population of 7.5 billion is hardly even a statistic. Several hundred cases of polio derived from the vaccine do occur though. Statistically, you will win the national lottery 5 times before catching polio

My newborn isn’t ‘safe’ from measles or mumps, and won’t be until she’s 1. There’s a measles outbreak in the next town over. I’m worried about going anywhere where there could be unvaccinated children possibly incubating these preventable diseases, including taking ds to nursery whilst she’s with me.
I do think all childcare providers should have a vaccination rule, especially ones who take children not old enough to be vaccinated yet.

X posted - slow typing whilst feeding said baby

I agree, scaevola, it's a real risk with some of these diseases, that they won't be spotted quickly.

I think it’s a good idea, I caught whooping cough 4 years ago and I’m still not recovered properly. I developed a hernia from coughing so hard.
I was vaccinated as a child but the vaccine wore off, luckily my children have had the vaccination and didn’t catch it.
It was truly the most miserable time, I honestly thought I was going to die at one point, I had a cough for 7 months.

Petra, polio aside , what are your thoughts on measles, mumps and rubella?

Oh and my GP missed diagnosing me 4 times, he had never seen a case of whooping cough in an adult. I had an older locum GP diagnose me in the end