Compulsory immunisation

[Parker231]

“Health secretary Matt Hancock has said he is willing to look at "all options" to boost England's vaccination levels, including compulsory immunisation.

Mr Hancock told the BBC he did not want to "reach the point" of imposing jabs, but would "rule nothing out".

I hope this goes ahead. In the States you can’t start public state school without up to date vaccination records.

How does it only affect poor people if all unvaccinated children are excluded from schools?

Because rich people can pay for privately schools which agree with their ethos (eg Steiner) or home school to varying degrees - either with the ability to have a SAHP or with tutors.

They also don’t have any benefits to cut

Surely the law would apply to all schools, private or not? If they want to home educate their contagious children away from everyone else that’s fine.

How could it? Private schools chose their own entrance criteria, that’s the point. All countries/ areas that insist on vaccination for public school have alternatives for those who don’t want to vaccinate.

Private schools still have to comply with the law though don’t they? They’re still regulated by the government?

So what are you saying? The law has nothing to do with school, it’s simply the law that all children must be vaccinated before school age? How would that be enforced?

Cases due to wild poliovirus have decreased by over 99% since 1988, from an estimated 350 000 cases then, to 33 (1) reported cases in 2018. As long as a single child remains infected, children in all countries are at risk of contracting polio

Just because the numbers are small, doesn't eradicate the virus. Virus's often disappear for decades and then reappear in slightly different forms, and often more deadly.

Most previously deadly viruses are still alive somewhere in world. The reason they aren't prevalent, is, in the main, due to vaccination. We are always one step away from the next "plague". If one comes along, I wonder, will all the anti-vaxxers suddenly change their minds and demand to be first in the queue.

Pass my kids were at private school in Illinois. Before the school would enroll them, they had to have a medical check up and prove their immunisation status. Same with every daycare/nursery/childminder state or private.

I think there are a couple of issues being conflated here. Is vaccination a good idea? Yes, generally speaking, and my children are vaccinated. Should vaccination be compulsory? Absolutely not, because the right to bodily autonomy has to be absolute or we become mere property of the state.

Another important point that has already been addressed on this thread is that vaccines wear off, often much more quickly than people think (whooping cough in less than a decade) meaning MOST adults are under immunised and also capable of spreading disease. Focusing exclusively on vaccinating children will not address this problem.

But you still could’ve home schooled them couldn’t you Arf?

@Flintyflinty I've not given any of my children the MMR shot but I am considering a single shot measles vaccine. The issue with measles is that the disease (which the NHS acknowledges on it's own website) is mild in most cases "Measles can be unpleasant, but will usually pass in about 7 to 10 days without causing any further problems." Measles NHS

Deaths attributable to measles had dropped significantly before vaccination was introduced in England and Wales in 1968, see www.jayne-donegan.co.uk/measles-2013 Similar trend in the USA

Petra

People from Britain do visit places like Afghanistan and Pakistan (and I think polio is also found in parts of Africa).

I have taught children/young people who visit relatives in both countries.

Whilst catching polio in the UK is rare it is not impossible and if we stopped vaccinating then one case brought in from abroad could easily become an epidemic, one UK doctors may not recognise or know how to treat, or even be able to treat.

As for the 'amount' of vaccines, the number of diseases we can vaccinate against has increased but at the same time the actual amount of vaccine injected has reduced.

Nothing is without risk, you can die from drinking too much water but we generally think of tap water being safe.

We have more and more people who are imunocompromised due to medical treatment, not just for cancer but treatment for some types of arthritis suppress the immune system and can be taken for decades.

I think not vaccinating is quite a middle class thing, people who think they are educated and do some 'research' and decide not to vaccinate. But in reality they are intelligent people who do not have the medical education needed to make a fully informed choice.

I actually think if you want to increase vaccination rates you don't make them compulsory for school but you do make them the top selection criteria before faith, siblings, LAC etc.

If there is an outbreak of a highly infectious disease then civil liberties will be put on hold, people will be isolated, possibly in their own homes and public places will close.

The Spanish Flu killed millions and restricted people's lives to a huge extent. Some soldiers returning from WWI were isolated on arrival back in Britain, they died not seeing their families.

In 1962 small pox was brought into the UK from Pakistan, the outbreak was as controlled as could be but people still died.

Deaths attributable to measles had dropped significantly before vaccination was introduced

Yes, because of better healthcare. Cases, however did not drop until vaccination was introduced. In third world countries, with poor healthcare, deaths and serious damage still occur. In the West it is rare to die, but in recent years, as there have been more and more cases due to non-vaccination, hospitalisation is increasing.

@Sashh I'm afraid I have to disagree with some of what you've said

"The last case of natural polio infection acquired in the UK was in 1984" Polio in the UK

So it's not just rare, it's actually non-existent in the UK.

"Wild poliovirus is spread through faeces and saliva. It is primarily transmitted through faecal–oral spread and is an important consideration where sanitation is poor." Transmission.

So it's not transmitted like the flu or common cold. You'd need to be in VERY close contact with an infected person, practically eating their poo. Statistically, there is more of a chance of getting a bad reaction to vaccine than contracting the diseases itself in the UK

As we are looking at statistics, one stands out. 95% of recent measles cases in Europe are in the under 1 year olds ie: those too young to have yet had the vaccine.

I didn't know, but have just learnt, that Measles also wipes out your immunity to other diseases for up to three years. So you may recover from measles but then be very ill from some other disease.

@SilentSister Yes, I agree, but to a certain extent this proves my point. Better sanitation, nutrition and healthcare had a big impact on measles outbreaks. Hard to say now how things would have progressed without the vaccine but the trend was in clear decline.

I'm not suggesting NOT to vaccinate, I'm saying it's weighing of risks, and parents should choose. In a country where polio or yellow fever for example are endemic, then it seems to make sense to vaccinate against these threats. In other countries, not so much. Vaccination by government dictat is a poor idea. Even in hyper-conformist Japan, vaccinations aren't mandatory, and they have the world's lowest infant mortality rate

@SilentSister As we are looking at statistics, one stands out. 95% of recent measles cases in Europe

Yes, mostly in the Ukraine, which is suffering from war-like conditions. Maybe poor nutrition and sanitation are having a major impact on the population's health in general?

PetraOne

We are going around and around in this one. But just wanted to update you:

In February 2019, France, Poland, Italy, the Czech Republic and Belgium had the highest case counts with 188, 178, 160, 115 and 90 cases respectively and notable increases were reported in France, Poland, the Czech Republic, Belgium, Bulgaria and Ireland.

No wars going on there as far as I know !

I totally disagree with the idea. I fully support immunisation and I think not doing it and then letting your children freely socialise is irresponsible at best. But if you make that compulsory then what next? No, sorry, that's an appalling idea. You must have freedom of choice when it comes to your own body.

pass the system works smoothly in Illinois which includes Chicago the 3rd biggest city in the USA. There is a government issued form that is required for every dc in childcare or school of any type. It is completed by the dc's doctor and lists the vaccinations held. In some cases it confirms the exemption. This certificates is then handed to the school nurse who manages the records confidentially.
Of course you could educate your dc at home and this would be quite an extreme choice so I would expect herd immunity to be reached by school attending dc. It is a non issue here, I have never heard any parent mention it other than gently grumbling about the paperwork.
Most well off parents are focused on getting their dc into the best schools same as anywhere.

pass the system works smoothly in Illinois which includes Chicago the 3rd biggest city in the USA.

Yet there are still measles outbreaks in Illinois. 7 I think to date?

My daughter who could NOT have the MMR for medical reasons. [severe IUGR, severe failure to thrive & then oncology when bone tumors were found following a life changing RTA] She caught measles due to herd immunity starting to slip in the UK. She was rather poorly and have to stay in a dark room for two weeks as the virus affected her eyes.

Her frankly weird immune system when it meet the measles virus meant she gave a slightly souped up version to her dad. He had had measles as a child.

He became so ill he had to be admitted to a negative pressure isolation unit within a regional isolation unit. I was the only one allowed into the negative pressure unit to visit him and even then it was by looking through a glass window. The virus left him delirous with a temp of 42C that nothing bought down. Encephalitis was suspected. He was haullicinating, disorinetated and terrified. He was unable to drink. He had to have medical assistance for internal body functions. His liver was damaged as were his kidneys. He needed support to breathe and his o2 sats were worrying. When he could get his eyes to open he could not see. Blood pooled under his skin. Put very simply after five days of fighting to life in hospital I found myself saying good-bye to my husband as even with supportive medical care a 'just a virus' was doing its damned best to kill him'.

Somehow he susrvived but measles has left him with permantly damaged eyesight, were the blood pooled under the rash it left deep scars. He was off work sick for months and it was a year before his liver was back to anything passing for normal. He still has moments when he remember how he felt along with the long term effect of being isolated and nursed as a real bio-hazard.

I would not wish having to say goodbye to someone you love due to measles on anyone else.

Having seen what measles is capable of I back vaccination for all who can have it. The risks of a none immunised child having measles caused encephalitis or blindness is greater than the risks of an adverse vaccine reaction. Measles as a virus has not lost its abilty to maim and even kill.

Everyone who had contact with my daughter who had not had the vaccine was urgently requested to get the MMR done to prevent her being the start of another serious outbreak. Thankfully most of her school had had the MMR. This is why herd immunity matters to all of us, it helps contain virulent outbreaks.

Yet there are still measles outbreaks in Illinois. 7 I think to date?

Seven cases, not seven outbreaks. An outbreak is three or more related cases.

www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/illinois-health-department-responding-to-us-measles-outbreak-509104781.html

As the news piece indicates, the HD is investigating why some schools have lower vaccination rates than other. It will likely come down to parents who have spent a hour consulting with doctor Google and decided they know better than their pediatrician and then have gotten around the system with a religious exemption. Or it could be transients or adults who never went through the schools system.

Vaccination will never offer perfect protection. It's idiotic to suggest that if it can't it's useless. On that basis we'd stop treating bacterial pathogens with antibiotics and cancer patients with chemotherapy. What we see is a very clear correlation between measles vaccination rates and morbidity and mortality.

As the news piece indicates, the HD is investigating why some schools have lower vaccination rates than other. It will likely come down to parents who have spent a hour consulting with doctor Google and decided they know better than their pediatrician and then have gotten around the system with a religious exemption. Or it could be transients or adults who never went through the schools system.

Sorry I thought the claim was DC couldn't get into school without being vaccinated, it seems that's not true.

Vaccination will never offer perfect protection. It's idiotic to suggest that if it can't it's useless.

I don't think anyone on this thread has said that. Simply that you have a small chance of catching the disease even if you been vaccinated, you can catch disease from recently vaccinated individuals. Neither would I wish to rely on a doctor for exemptions when half of them can't spot sepsis. Not a dig at doctors or the great work they do but in my opinion the aforementioned negates any call for compulsory vaccination.