Getting into Oxford.....

[CrushWithEyeliner]

My friends' son has not passed the entrance to Oxford.
He is super clever, v good at maths and has has a private ed all his life with great results all around. He is articulate but not overly cerebral or intellectual, he finds certain subjects v easy and knows it, he is also really interested in banking. investment management and that kind of career.

I was quite surprised when he didn't make it, and want to know a bit more as to why. I don't want to go into all the details with the parents as I can tell they are quite gutted.
Does anyone know what they are looking for at this exam/ interview and what kind of student gets into Oxford - it seems being clever isn't enough..does this sounds utterly naive?!

as far as i know its not just about being clever, im sure they can have their pick of clever people, its about you as a person, your all round character, what activities have you been involved in while at school? what did you contribute? what did you do outside of school? Are you a friendly approachable articulate individual, etc etc you know all that kind of stuff, i imagine

it's also massively oversubscribed so pot-luck on whether you get in.

that and the hundreds of people youre up against btw he may well just have been unlucky, theymay well have just gone eenie meenie miny mo over 2 people, however there are a number of really good universitys and oxford is farking freezing in winter, go somewhere warmer!

For Oxford, you have to be passionate about your subject - that's the main thing they are looking for.

They are less interested in extra-curricular stuff.

ah, interesting. You have to live and breathe it kinda thing?

My v' bright nephew didn't' get into Oxford - he went to LSE insted. It certainly hasn't done him any harm career wise.

I went to school with someone who realy wasn't that bright (although he did manage three As at A'level) - He was very much the Oxford type though. From what I hear he now tunes organs for a living.

I think the people who interview will be working closely with the students, so to a large extent, they will be picking the people they like, I expect.

but what is the Oxford type?

and is the exam for all applicants the same one or specific to their subject?

Well......he smoked a pipe, grew a beard, and a nice side parting, and had a fondness for wearing cricket whites even when not playing cricket. He also waffled ontalked as if he were 65.

As with anything like there this there is a high degree of randomness & pure luck. No point in over-analysing. However as some have already suggested it could be that possibly the future career ideas might have been a turn off as there are hundreds of these types & it can seem that the degree/instition is just a stepping stone & he would not be studying for the love of it. And also that he applied to the more popular colleges.

Everyone who applies will be super clever and will be predicted at least 3 As at A level, or already have the 3 As. So he will have already been up against his intellectual equals.

I really don't think there is an Oxford 'type' these days. They are looking for people who are passionate about their subject (regardless of their 'perceived' background/education) and who are presumably able to convey this at interview.

If he hasn't taken his A levels yet, he could always take a gap year and apply again next year. Usually the colleges send feedback to the school as to why they weren't accepted. So he could find out probably.

You don't have to be an all A student - I wasn't predicted 3 A grades for A-level & didn't get 3 As but still got an offer & got in. Agree with the re-applying if you're that bothered. My mate had 4 As predicted & got them, was turned down from Cambridge but was accepted into Trinity upon re-applying.
I found at the interview it was hard to convey anything: at one the panel of elderly male interviewers seemed to be most uncomfortable dealing with "a young lady" & at the other the prof was so nerdy he was on a different planet & I could barely understand what he was trying to ask!

I'm not sure that all applicants have to take a test. I think it depends on the college and course. If you go onto the university website it gives you this information. You can also get a sample test given for PPE and a few others. Its multiple choice and I tried it for fun. The problem was not getting the right answer (which I'm glad to say I managed) but I couldn't do it quick enough.

There are a few mumsnetters who work as admissions tutors for Oxbridge and they will tell you that they are not that bothered about extra-curriculum activities unless to do with the subject to be studied.

Advice from a friend who is an admissions tutor.... everyone else applying is very clever too. Oxbridge want the best minds, they want people who have a passion for the subject they will be studying, and who have already gone way beyond what they need to get the A grade A level. By that I don't mean that they will necessarily be working at degree level in terms of anything they've actually written, but their mindset will be operating in that way. Admissions tutors are looking for that 'something extra'and will generally not be overly impressed by a candidate who is obsessed with jumping through the hoops, getting their 3 A grades and securing the Oxbridge place as an end in itself. They want people who genuinely excel and see beyond getting into Oxbridge. Forget the extra curricular stuff. They really don't give a hoot about whether you've played lacrosse for England. Having gone through the private school route could actually be a dis advantage. There is a lot of pressure now for Oxbridge to recruit from the state sector, and they will look at the average grades, or points, of the school the student attended. In other words, if half the pupils from his school are getting 3 A grades, then his achievement will not look so great in comparison. I know a number of students who are abandoning private for state because they feel a good state sixth form is the optimum position to be applying for University from.

Having said all this, it's ridiculous to get hung up on Oxbridge, and a little worrying that the parents are gutted about it. There are many other excellent Universities. I would be very wary of anyone who obsesses so much about Oxbridge - it smacks of wanting to be in there for the wrong reasons, rather than genuinely wanting the best place to study your particular subject.

I very much agree with your last paragraph, findtheriver.

That's really interesting, and relieving, about the extra-curric stuff. I always thought it was quite important.

findtheriver's post is spot on. If you want to get into, and succeed at, the very best universities (not just Oxbridge but worldwide) you need to be much more than a hoop-jumper, processed by whatever super-duper luxury system Mummy and Daddy have paid for you to be groomed at. You need to have a mind of your own and a passion for something(s) that those universities value and teach. All admissions tutors are looking for those students who will provide the intellectual energy to keep a tutorial/seminar group on its toes.

When I applied many years ago we were advised to show that we'd read around the subject. The questions (eg 'How would you test for life on Mars' - for a Biology application) reflected this. Very open ended, but an opportunity to demonstrate that you had read more widely than the A level syllabus.

They weren't remotely interested in my other A levels, or even my Biology A level really.

TBH that approach remained throughout the course (for Zoology as I ended up doing) with a final general paper with questions like 'What is the purpose of death?' (we hadn't had any lectures on that btw! -which is also fairly typical of the Oxford approach, or was then- it may have changed now).

My cousin also didnt make it last year, nobody knows why really- spent his life seemingly aimed by both Aunt and school at that target.

He is now at Leeds and thriving. Really thriving- despite having As he is making frieds, coping and getting good grades. It's as i someone took the shackles off.

Now that may have happened at uni anyway but there are so many good Uni's out there- Dundee, York, Bristol etc- I wish him luck.

"finds certain subjects v easy and knows it"

I'm very afraid that may have been the problem. When you can take your pick of well-qualified applicants, attitude matters an awful lot - and not just for university, but afterwards too, job interviews and everything. Someone who comes across as self-satisfied (and maybe even arrogant) is not going to get "ooh, yes, I'd like to teach this one". (He'd do well to learn that lesson now.)

Re Oxford, I can only speak for myself & many years ago, but after the interview the college told my school they thought I was "charming and able". Note the order of adjectives: it matters I think!

I want to harp on about this attitude thing a bit more - it still matters enormously in who gets offered the post-university jobs in my workplace - you hear the interviewers wearily saying things like "he [candidate] just wouldn't shut up".

And those who do well have really exactly the same set of attitude-abilities: a cheery "can do" manner, a way of paying attention to what's going on and offering to join in, the ability to admit ignorance when that's the truth (but to say how you are going to go about learning whatever it is), not minding helping out others, realising that showing off is childish so not doing it, listening more than talking ...

Dear CrushWithEyeliner,

When my daughter was looking at colleges we called admissions and asked them what type of student they were looking for. Different colleges are looking for different things. From what I read here-Oxford is looking for a PASSION for learning and perhaps a passion for a specific field of study. Really interested in banking, investment management and that kind of a career isn't the same thing as living, breathing, and eating investment banking. When a school says passion, in my experience, they want the student to be on fire for something with a tremendous amount of drive to accomplish their objective.

I've been involved in interviewing for university admissions, and the things that stick out a mile are:

intellectual curiosity -- a mind that is constantly wondering why, looking for connections, new slants on subjects, going one stage further

originality and independence of mind -- hasn't just done the usual high-achieving child in successful school box-ticking (first eleven, grade 8 violin, lead in the school play) but has done something different, interesting, maybe a little left-field. If it relates to the subject to be studied, that's even better.

ability to argue -- not as in 'be a stroppy little so and so', but show a willingness to defend strongly-held ideas and react creatively when challenged

Someone who is not the typical product of their school and home environment. It is very easy to detect the typical private-ed polish, and most academics will develop a bit of a nervous twitch when confronted by an over-confident public-school veneer without much substance behind it. You're looking for people who really want to study that subject, and have the passion and the determination to see them through three years of essays and research, rather than people who are clever, well-educated, have always done well at school and regard Oxbridge as their rightful next step.

I am an Oxbridge admissions interviewer, (and I am not elderly or male!)

1. You have to be able to debate well under pressure. Most state school pupils fall down at this hurdle if they are going to fall down anywhere.

1. Yes we do like it if people have represented their country at a sport, but only because this shows utter drive and determination. Belonging to the school footie team/DofE squad/chess team/being a prefect is not really that interesting, on the other hand, because practically everyone has done things like that, or claims to have done so on their UCAS form anyway.

1. We look at how an applicant's GCSE grades compare with the GCSE grades of their secondary school between the ages of 11-16, so transferring to a state 6th form college for A Levels is not a golden ticket.

1. You might be less likely to get in if you apply for a deferred place.

1. If in doubt, apply, and if you fail to get in the first time, consider reapplying because it really is a bit of a lottery despite our best efforts to be fair (and we bend over backwards to ensure this).

1. Don't forget Special Access Schemes if you have been ill etc, or suffered from not being taught properly or at all for some of your A Level modules (it happens, even in supposedly good schools).

PS To Crush:

I didn't get into Oxbridge for undergraduate studies either!! But I have since got a couple of Oxbridge postgrad degrees, written books, won prizes, and ended up working for them. So it can be more random than everyone thinks. I have many colleagues in the same position as well.

Fbm is right you have to function well under pressure and almost need to practice that as I was totally thrown in my first interview at Cambridge and luckily was given another chance as was pooled. By the time I had further interviews including having questions fired at me by 3 people at once, I was less fazed than if it had been my first interview so came across as confident and in control and less obviously terrified. My advice would be to consciously keep your head and don't be afraid to be thoughtful instead of rushing answers out of nerves.