Misogyny and how should schools address it?

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9qednjzwv1o

Although I think on the whole I do agree with the below I do have some doubts about the extent schools should be teaching pupils about relationships and how do you define misogyny at the periphery.

Are we in danger of making fgirls think all boys/men are misogynists? At a really sensitive part of development how do we identify those boys are truly misogynist and not those that maybe make comments about a girl's figure , the frequency of which would make it difficult to poliice?

The article does read as if schools should be viewing all teenage relationships with suspicion with the very high rates of states abuse so is this also a call for children to refrain from relationships until adulthood!

All DC should be taught about stereotypes and sexism. It starts so early and quickly jumps with "oh girls like playing with the washing machine and don't like dinosaurs" to "girls should be using the washing machine and leaving the palaeontology to the real men"

I think you need to give thought to how misogyny is defined. Should it be restricted in some sense to tackling abuse in relationships (as above) or does it extend to misogyny in terms of career suppression of work distribution in relationshios?

One slight concern reading the above was the figure that 40% of girls suffer abuse in teenage relationships so does this mean society and schools should act to say such relationships should be avoided or reported?

The intent may be good but this is potentially the start of a slippery slope with the introduction of “thought police”. The definition and interpretation of what constitutes misogyny will vary from person to person and will be heavily biased by personal experience. I fear innocent boys will be the victims of some heavy handed school “policing”. One persons innocent conversation, banter, flirting or joking will be anothers misogynistic language.

This is exactly what was said about tackling racist language.

There is no thought police, as people are free to think anything they like.

School is not a private space, it is a school. Just as adults follow standards on speech at work, so should kids have standards at school.

A student will still be free to think 'girls are not as good at maths as boys' if that's how they've been raised, and they can discuss it at home or in a friendship group of similar-minded people, but why should that comment be allowed in the classroom?

I don’t disagree but I would argue the boundaries of what constitutes misogyny are harder to define than racism. You only need to look at MN on any given day to see it.
Q: My DH made this joke is it ok?
Woman A: he’s a vile misogynistic creep
Woman B: I find that hilarious!
Q: how do view men holding the door open for a woman to go through first?
Woman A: it’s archaic misogynistic crap!
Woman B: I love it! It’s polite and considerate.
If women themselves can’t then it’s going to become a bit of a free for all with students, parents and teachers all disagreeing on the definitions.

they need to do something, not sure if this is enough or even the right approach but nothing isn’t an option. I know a 17 year old who actually wishes she was gay because “all the boys are so sexist” she goes to a private school too!

The exact same debates happen about racist comments, homophobic comments.

But there are things that are clearly unacceptable, offensive or derogatory.

Is the classroom an appropriate place for remarks about girls/women that would be unacceptable in the workplace? No.

Holding the door open is NOT what this is about. That's a straw man example.

I think it's a good idea although I wonder what schools and teachers think of it, given they are already stretched so thin.

I certainly don't share the concerns of Notmyreality. Misogyny is blatant and obvious and not really subjective. I doubt boys are going to end up in detention for holding a door open for example.

I think it’s an important thing to be talked about. However in my experience, schools perpetuate misogyny, eg, obsessing about the length of girls’s skirts, boys overwhelmingly getting more teacher time in lessons. In my dc school, we recently had an email to say that girls’ football after school was cancelled due to the weather, boys’ would go ahead indoors. This kind of thing is where it starts, and if we can’t get that right, the rest is performative.

they need to do something,

Who are 'they'?

The teachers? The government?

Having been told two days ago that there is no money for suggested teacher pay rises next year, which will mean staff redundancies, increased workload, high levels of unhappiness etc etc, it's interesting to wake up to news today that despite all this, the government want it to be the teachers' jobs to fix. Schools can't be selected to fix all the problems in society, whilst their budgets are simultaneously pulled.

It feels like the government are rubbing their hands together with glee.

Parents need more childcare?
Let's force schools to provide it free to parents! We can prevent them being able to charge like they have been and only give them 60p per child per day so they will have to fund the rest!

Parents need nurseries as many private nurseries have closed as they couldn't make ends meet with the low funding amounts we gave them?

Let's tell schools to open nurseries and give them the inadequate funding instead as they'll have to cover the rest from their budget!

No spaces in SEND schools?!

Let's make mainstream schools all turn their library, corridor, ICT room into an SEN room! The children can be shoved in there with a TA who can be paid minimum wage, and we don't have to find a special school space for them!

Children can't get dentist checkups as dentists don't want to work for the nhs as their pay is woeful?

Let's make toothbrushing the schools' job!

What next?

It’s really important that schools don’t use the phrase ‘toxic masculinity’, large numbers of boys feel ‘got at’ and unsure of their place in the world; telling them they are toxic fuels this. What is needed is to demonstrate positive masculinity and good role models (and not just footballers, TikTokers etc). Ordinary men being good men. Make teachers (and women too) being aware of the impact of their words (don’t run like a girl, gossiping like old women, over policing girls uniform, lower behaviour standards expected from boys, allowing boys to dominate spaces,). Boys hate being laughed at by their peers. we need to understand what is fuelling this and tackle it sensitively to avoid a. Backlash -inadvertently making it even cooler to be misogynistic. https://workingwithboys.com/ Is a really interesting read.

What slippery slope?

This needs to happen and fast. It’s not about interpretation or jokes.

It’s a GOOD thing.

And how many go home to learn how to do it or how to put up with it from their parents, what home life do these misogynists have?

Parents are the ultimate role models

In real life it’s pretty obvious what constitutes sexism/racism/homophobia. It seems to be always a certain type who comes up with straw man arguments to try and prevent others calling it out.

Of course people’s personal interactions are taken into account. I had unwanted attention at work. I clearly said I wasn’t interested, it kept on, trying to be explained away as banter. My complaint was justified and dealt with. I also met my husband at work, we flirted and got together outside of work. The attention was welcome. It’s pretty easy to distinguish - is the other person comfortable with your behaviour. If they aren’t stop it.

Nobody is going to police your thoughts, but if you act on them they you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences. Hopefully sexist ‘banter’ will soon be outdated as it isn’t funny or relevant.

@verycloakanddaggers

A student will still be free to think 'girls are not as good at maths as boys' if that's how they've been raised, and they can discuss it at home or in a friendship group of similar-minded people, but why should that comment be allowed in the classroom?

Why should that not be allowed in the classroom?

It’s a claim of fact like “women are weaker than men” or “men are more violent than women” or any other group comparison that’s either true or false, depending on the claim and the context and the evidence.

I don’t trust schools an inch to decide which beliefs mustn’t be questioned on pain, presumably, of punishment.

Belittling or victimising should obviously continue to be prohibited. Why the additional ban on ideas?

😂😂😂😂

Just reading this with my dd in her first year of Maths at uni lying next to me. There’s loads of girls on her course.

Boys are not better at maths. It’s a sexist fallacy.

What planet are you in? Or even what century are you in.

What we need is inspirational men who have careers and families go into schools and give talks and hope to boys and girls. At grammars and top state schools and private schools you get this anyway. Perhaps some of it can be via video link. There are far too many boys (and girls) growing up with no real role models or even two parents in the picture. A lot of families are broken, a lot of people are suffering mentally and are dysfunctional. How to become a good person in a broadest sense who contributes positively to society (right thoughts, right action. Respect for all including yourself, your body, your own talents) absolutely should be the key part of education. Everyone is on a journey from infancy and education is there to guide that journey. Now if teachers themselves are broken en masse these classes need to be delivered by professionals in the field. They promised us counsellors in every school but they can’t all be female. Boys need make role models there too, youth clubs, social workers etc etc

There are also a lot of neurodivergent boys stuck in rooms on screens with full access to porn etc who absolutely need training on cues from girls etc, because they cannot actually tell due to neurodivergence and it is hard for them to read social communication. The whole NEET and consent and dysfunctionality etc and also neglecting your physical and mental health and being a screen addict and not feeling part of the world and being labelled via education - it is all part of the same dysfunctionality. Absolutely every young person is worth something and needs guidance to the extent of need. A lot of the stuff that used to happen to girls in the past seems to have been revived by the likes of Andrew Tate by tricking boys into believing they deserve a community. Of course they deserve a community, but it can be achieved in a positive way without harming girls. And that is a gap that Andrew Tate and his ilk have exploited and the Government and education and social work absolutely has to fill that gap positively.

Sure, if the claim is "no girls study maths at university" it's a pretty stupid one.

Why ban that?

What other claims you think are false do you think schools should ban?

There are a couple I'd put on that list, but very few indeed.

We are coming through a time where pointing out ways in which men and women differ has been heavily policed in service of an orthodoxy.

Making it punishable to say "this is what I think, and here's why I think evidence and reason support my view" is dangerous.

I think that's true here too.

I think it's true when it makes men look bad, makes women look bad, whether it's for a good cause, a bad cause, a strong claim, a weak claim, an absurd claim. I think it's virtually always true.

If you are thinking "well, obviously not in this case, only bad or stupid people would think that, and they deserve what comes to them" then that's just the same slippery slope every time.

You were talking about the claim girls are not as good as Maths as boys not how many went to university.

I used to be a teacher ( not of Maths) l would have challenged that comment if it came up in my class.

Great. Not banned or punished it, I hope? That was what was proposed earlier.

I think it's great to challenge the statement. There are all sorts of ways to (is the claim about median ability, the left tail, the right tail, realised results, innate aptitude, etc. etc. Nature vs nurture in group differences? How should the debate be navigated, should some claims be taboo regardless of their truth or falsehood, etc.)

I lean pretty heavily to the view that virtually everything should be debatable, and I particularly don't trust schools to select which heresies to ban/punish.

I would have said ‘don’t talk like that in my class. This is a sexist statement’

And l would have been expected to do this under school policy. And l wouldn’t want to hear shit like that in any claaa from any gender.

So l absolutely would have banned it and if it persisted l would punish it Why would l let a divisive statement like that stand?

It would be school policy to challenge parents like this.

I think there are issues around competition etc that one has to be honest about. A lot of boys do thrive on competition and it motivates them to do well/better having healthy competition to impress others whereas for plenty of girls too much competition can knock their confidence and cause self doubt/anxiety.
Obviously, this is a vast generalisation but something I have observed in my own DC despite my boys being what you would call more sensitive types and my girls being more sociable/alpha types. A lot of traditional girls and boys schools do know this and have tools at their disposal knowing how to handle it and adapt to ever changeing societal conditions. For boys, healthy & fair competition can be really good not just in sports - but there has to be the whole chat around how can you be competitive and driven and focussed and still encourage your peers. Privileged parents can afford after school clubs etc and provide plenty of healthy exposure, a lot of poorer parents/mental health challenged parents cannot.

My 17 year DD is currently in a competitive boys heavy grammar school and they are overall a lovely bunch and she is quite feminist and they do talk about these things quite a lot at school. But ultimately at their age, the real learning happens amongst their friendship circle and how they treat each other and as she is around nice boys from families with good male role models, they are all fine and treat the girls very well. I think they have to start by looking at what makes some boys be healthy in that regard versus what does not. It is definitely not just “money” but positive attention from an early age and exposure to healthy competition and resilience etc. There are plenty of boys in private schools dumped their from broken families who also have real problems vis a vis respect towards girls.