State Primary then Private secondary - how likely?

[AliceAnneB]

Neither DH nor I are from the UK so we are at a bit of a loss on this one. My preference is to send him to the local state primary then sit him for the 11+ for private secondary. But even though our local primary is "outstanding" and top 50 nationally not many kids go on to private education. The leavers list had 1 from 60 kids going private. I was a bit surprised and wondered if most go at 7+ or are they just so far behind by 11 that only the absolute brightest get a place? FWIW we are in Muswell Hill - London.

Hi.

I think you'll find its because the state sector don't prepare children for 11+.
I think i also read they aren't allowed to.
Most who do this use private tutors but it isn't rare by any count.
The system is just different and state schools work towards SATS at y6.
You will need your dc to be familiar with 11+ papers and tutors are usually good for this unless your child is very bright, in which case parents just buy a few past papers to familiarise their dc with the format.

you would not get any help from the school with that but in your area I am sure private tutors abound.

Hi
It is certainly possible. Many independent schools in London have large numbers from State schools. If very few from your primary move on to independent schools at 11 it could be because the local state schools are good so people don't see the need to pay. It could be because a lot of people aren't high earners so can't afford to pay. Or it doesn't sit well with peoples ideals.
If you are considering private from 11 you will probibly need to tutor because state schools don't prep for private school exams. Also many prep school pupils also have outside school tutors.
Go and look at the schools you are interested in and ask them what % come from state schools.
Many parents whose children are at prep schools talk about their children being 1 or 2 years/ahead but children in state schools who leave on level 5 or 6 are also 2 + years ahead on paper.

How many children went to grammar schools?
I'm just wondering if, as one of the "top" primaries nationally, parents were choosing to go with free, state selective schools rather than pay.

We're at a very good state primary. Every year nearly half the class of 60 go on to private school. And also grammar schools. Obviously with tutoring! And yes, we get absolutely no advice at all from the school, but what the hell, I've saved about £160k and my daughter will be going to the same school as parents who have paid school fees for the past six years!!' Totally doable.

I declare a personal bias. We are at state primary (good but no longer outstanding, N. London) and, for child 1 at least, it was no disadvantage at all. They went into 2 entrance processes and came out with offers from both (both considered good schools, one considered "super selective"). Can't tell you how they would have faired in the grammar school race, but they probably would have succeeded (think Dame Alice Owen and Latymer Edmonton). Granted, both child 1 and child 2 are very bright and get excellent school reports / well ahead of expected national curriculum levels.

The things to keep in mind are:

KEEP CALM

• don't get caught up in the 11+ hyperbole and the prep school / tutoring madness
• don't stress about the 11+ or cause your child to be anxious about it. It's an option and other options are "not failure"

CARRY ON

• the national curriculum gives you all you need for maths and english
• make sure homework is done to the highest standard
• encourage lots of reading and creative story writing
• if your child is bright and ahead of expected averages, make sure the school is extending their workplan and pace to stretch their ability and keep them from being bored/finding everything too easy
• avoid showing your child that you "just can't do x, y, or z (e.g. maths), show them you can figure it out with them
• what you do know when they ask a question, explain as fully as possible, don't leave any thing out and don't "water it down" or patronise them just because they are little. Treat them like a little learning adult.

EXTRA HELP

• the national curriculum will not cover two very important things

1) exam technique 2) reasoning - verbal and non-verbal (depending on what your chosen school likes to use)

• this can be achieved around the kitchen table by you, if your relationship can bear a parent teacher position (not many can) using many free or cheap resources (on line example 11+ papers, various website, Bond books, etc)
• failing that you could try signing up for a tutor class. Explore Learning does a 1 year 11+ programme (twice a week after school) in the run up to the Sept grammar school tests. Some people rate these courses, some hate them.
• you can find a tutor to do all this for you

In my opinion, if you need to tutor a child for more than 3 months in advance of an exam you are probably pushing them harder than they will enjoy for the next 7 years at secondary school. Many many many parents do exactly that. I didn't and won't for child 2. We did 10 one hour sessions in the ten weeks prior to the exams - it was enough.

FINAL WORDS

• relax
• play
• relax
• make sure there's lots of extra curricular stuff going on
• theatre, music concerts, science lectures, sports, local clubs

If you look on the websites of the various private secondary schools they'll often say how many year 7s are coming from state/private. In a lot of cases (and pretty selective cases at that) it's about 50/50.

It's entirely doable with a bit of practice.

Where did most of the children go to for secondary? If it was Fortismere then that could be your answer. Many parents will be living in Muswell Hill just so they don't have to go private at secondary level.

Maybe the children aren't far behind academically , more that the local state offer is as good as a private education.

I don't know personally, it's just an educated guess

Thanks for all the info. Only two went to grammars last year. Most went to APS, some to Fortismere. I haven't been able to find any info on the Indy schools websites regarding percentage of kids from state school admitted? Year six in state school seems to be entirely devoted to getting the kids to pass the SATS which seems a giant waste of a year?

Alice

You can get a component of kids from state primary by looking up the Accounts of the private school at the charities commission website (assuming they are a charity). The accounts will tell you more about how many receive bursaries. It's usually around 10%.

I agree to some extent about the SATs in year 6 state school. It's much more about measuring the school than the kids. Their secondary school will band them in year 7 anyway. That said, it is useful to up the work rate a bit and get them used to tests - secondary school comes quickly after the SATs!

Sorry for the dumb question but how would a private school qualify as a charity?

most of them do Alice, they justify it by offering bursaries and scholarships to certain pupils. That does not mean that anyone can phone up and ask for one mind! If you live in Muswell Hill, why not use Fortismere or APS rather than maybe waste your money.

In order to be a charity an organisation has to fulfil any of a list of charitable objectives - one of which is the promotion of education, hence it is possible for private schools in the UK to be structured as charities, and many are, including all the big name public schools. They do not have shareholders or owners, nobody takes a profit out of them, and they have to demonstrate "public benefit", which is normally done through the grant of means tested bursaries.

It's a historic thing dating back to the original definition of charities many hundreds of years ago.

Thanks UniKitty for the explanation. Things could or rather will change a lot before my DC is ready for secondary but currently I wouldn't choose Fortismere or APS. I can't imagine we won't go private for secondary but you never know.

Yes, it is possible and also likely (to go from state primary to private sec), and not only for the very top performers. You got great advice already (especially the long post from MN164), here are a few extra points:

1. Spread your bets and be realistic in terms of selectivity - get to know schools (we have tons in London!) and their (%a*-a) GCSE stats (which broadly reflect intake selectivity). Do NOT just pick a few at the top of the rankings. If you have an average ability kid, there are good, suitable independent secondary schools but not in the top 20! Telegraph online has ca 400... Difficult to tell how academic your DCs are early on, wait and see in year 4 and 5
2. If you have girls, google the North London independent girls' school consortium, and look up the various schools in group 1 and 2: Helps identify a bunch of schools + you can apply to several schools based on sitting one or two shared tests
3. The secondary ed board is the place - try (advanced) search on some school names and you'll find lots of useful (old) threads that can help you get up the learning curve on the landscape of schools, preparation, tests, interviews, offers/waiting lists...
4. Look in the mouth of those gift horses (state schools) before/without simply discarding them. I have no direct knowledge, but a recent MN thread broadly portrays Fortismere as the kind of school people kill/move for (or decide not to move away from)
5. Don't confuse selectivity with how well your particular kid is likely to do. It could be that being happy and above average at #125 will yield better GCSEs (not to mention enjoyment and confidence) than scraping into and struggling at #12

Alice, may I ask why you currently wouldn't choose APS or Fortismere?

APS, is that Alexandra Park School; the newish school near the train station of the same name?

I do mean Alexandra Park School Gopher.

I will try to answer your question Mickmills but I do think it might open pandoras box a bit. This is only my opinion and what I want for my child. Please do bear in mind I'm not British and have been in the Uk for 6 years so my perspective is certainly different. That said, while Fortismere gets good results - its should! It has a very homogenous intake of very privileged children with mostly well educated parents. I think it's good at getting good A level grades but for me that's only one part of an education. I'm not convinced of the pastoral care and the teaching seems average certainly not inspirational. They are well off kids getting good grades. I'm hoping for a school that can foster a sense of community and offer a broader range of subjects that will stretch and broaden my DC. The entire UK system seems to specialize very young and to be a bit of a factory production aimed at getting all important SATS grades. It just leaves me a bit cold. I would certainly consider the IB for DC as I don't think they should be able to drop subjects that young. It seems to narrow down their education in a phenomenal way. A lot of the private schools seems to have a much wider range of extra curricular activities and have things like mandatory volunteer hours. As a very last note, it may be insignificant but the way the girls dress is shocking! I would not be okay with my daughter wearing what I have seen lots of girls wearing at Fortismere.

As for APS I actually thing they have better teachers and a more holistic approach. They seem to get the same grades as Fortismere with a far more varied intake of kids. It feels more of a "proper London comp". That said the class sizes are big (to me). And I've managed to have to break up two fist fights between younger boys that were vicious and accompanied by some pretty spectacular language. We have neighbours who send their DC to APS and have said it's whole lot more rough than anyone would like to admit. Just yesterday I was on the bus with a bunch of maybe year 10 girls who were loudly discussing how they wouldn't sit with and Indian girl because she smelled of curry. The conversation was disgusting. These are just examples of what has left me feeling like neither of these schools would be a good fit for us. My DC isn't even in primary yet so like I said lots could change and I'm certainly open to that. I have no idealogical attachment to either state or private. I just want a school that will nurture the whole child and for the class sizes to not be huge.

Given you are in Muswell Hill I suspect your answer is that, well, you're in Muswell Hill and the state secondaries are excellent. Totally doable but probably most parents in your current primary don't see the point. I suspect if you add HBS, QE boys, Latymer, JCOSS, st Michael's Finchley and JFS into the mix after Fortismere and APS you've actually pretty much covered some of the best state schools in the country many of whom, if they lived elsewhere would have automatically gone privately. I suspect that the pool of people prepared to sit their children and pay fees with so many outstanding state options is somewhat diminished rather than the fact that they don't get in to private schools.

I know someone with kids at Tetherdown - every single child in her son's class (top half of the school) is tutored. Many have 2 tutors. They are tutored either for grammar/private at 11, or to get into the top set at Fortismere.

letsplayscrabble - every single? Really? I wouldn't be surprised if a lot are but that seems mad! I'm not questioning your information - just amazed that it's the case

" I think it's good at getting good A level grades but for me that's only one part of an education."
This is true, anyway Fortismere is not comprehensive at Sixth Form level as you have to get good GCSE results to be 'invited' in.
Most proper 'comp' schools will also be offering also eg BTEC and vocational courses at 16 plus.

Maybe they prefer to a state secondary? Or can't afford private? I certainly wouldn't read it that their children would be unable to go to a private school if that was what they wanted - not all private schools are academically selective anyway. In fact I would think that if you attend a state primary the expectation is that you would stay state.

I'm actually surprised by the number locally who transfer from state to private (or sometimes super-selective grammar) locally, even though there are good state secondaries. It's been about a third in recent years. Those who are interested in the super-selectives or the particularly academic privates often use tutors in the run up to the entrance tests, but not always.

Every single child in her son's class, yes. Many had more than one e.g. tutor plus kumon.

I also know someone who was "invited to leave" Fortismere midway through her A-levels as she wasn't going to get the grades they wanted. I think that's pretty rubbish TBH. Don't think it's a great school if you're not a high flyer.

That's really interesting AliceAnnB, and I would probably agree with you on a lot of the issues you have raised; about Fortismere and our education system anyway.

I don't know much about APS, but it sounds very much like the London Comp I went to. You probably didn't see the children who would argue back at the girls on her bus, or the ones that don't fight.

Anyway, what you are probably finding is that most parents don't go private at secondary in muswell hill for a variety of reasons. They pay tutors to get their children into grammar, or they are happy with Fortismere. Maybe state primary schools in areas where there isn't such a highly regarded state secondary have a higher level of children going private for secondary. MN164 seems to have covered what you need to do, and I imagine there are tutors who specialise at getting children into particular schools.

If it helps, I think there is evidence that class size is not actually an issue in educational achievement. In other words people believe it to be an issue, and think it makes sense that it would be, but actually the scientific evidence doesn't show that it is. Not much help without the link though, which I may remember and post ;)

Could you go private all the way through to alleviate your concerns?