State Primary then Private secondary - how likely?

[AliceAnneB]

Neither DH nor I are from the UK so we are at a bit of a loss on this one. My preference is to send him to the local state primary then sit him for the 11+ for private secondary. But even though our local primary is "outstanding" and top 50 nationally not many kids go on to private education. The leavers list had 1 from 60 kids going private. I was a bit surprised and wondered if most go at 7+ or are they just so far behind by 11 that only the absolute brightest get a place? FWIW we are in Muswell Hill - London.

Thanks for all the thought provoking comments. The discussion is really helping me to think further about what is motivating our decision.

Gophers last comment seems to have disappeared but the point about class size not mattering academically was brought up and I think it's a very interesting point. I have read the recent research on class size which shows only marginal academic achievement in smaller classes but, to me, that is such a narrow view. I don't think it takes emotional and social well-being of the pupils into consideration. How can a teacher take time to worry about the pupils well-being when she/he has 30 kids to haul over the next academic milestone? I remember taking a psych class in University and the Prof saying that grades don't equate to success later in life in careers and happiness. It was a really interesting point that has stuck with me. What does correlate is emotional health and resilience. The UK rated dead last amongst child well-being. They measured 6 dimensions of well-being and the one that stuck with me was the "relationships" one. The UK had the lowest proportion of children who said their peers were "kind and helpful". To me thats a huge problem. Who cares if they all pass their SATS if they can't get along and are miserable? www.unicef.org/media/files/ChildPovertyReport.pdf

Of course this all comes back to a comparison of two actual schools because it's all well and good to point at statistics but it will be the teaching and atmosphere of the particular school that will matter.

The amount of tutoring going on in the MH primaries make me think it's just not worth it. It can't be fun to get a kid to do that much tutoring on top of school. For us we could afford the fees for one child but two would mean me working full time and I'm not sure that's what I want....

Just to add I looked at Rhodes Avenues 2014 report on leavers last night and they sent 7/60 to Latymer and 4 to private schools.

People I know tend to do it the other way round: you pay for private prep school (8-12k a year) so you can get into selective state comprehensive schools, rather than pay 12-16k for private secondary school. This is considerably cheaper way of doing it.

If your kids are really bright you don't need private prep and you don't even need selective state comprehensive, they will do well anyway.

The point about emotional well being is an interesting point Alice. I'm not sure if that is a subject teachers role, at least not in state secondary, although I would be happy to be corrected in that. Of course, teachers do tend to be caring and want the best for "their" kids. I suppose their form form tutors would take on the pastoral role? I don't know much about private schools; would subject teachers take an interest in the whole of the child?

I do remember looking at the National Curriculum documents when they were published, oh, twenty odd years ago. There was a sentence in there about how our children needed to achieve well at school so they could get good jobs to help the economy. I do remember thinking that i wanted education to be about more than Capitalism. Anyhow, many years later i am more ambivalent; I expect my child to be taught to read, write and do maths to a high standar. but I'd like her to be happy doing it.

My DD is 6 and I'm hoping never to have to tutor her, however I know families who have started tutoring at this age, or younger. I'm sort of hoping that as a family if we take an interest in life, libraries, books, museums, art, music, chilling and downtime etc that that will be our side of education. As a family we are very good at chilling out being lazy

Would you be in the catchment for Highgate Woods?

Just to add...I wouldn't assume that children at private prep schools aren't tutored (on top of their school work) for 11+. Many are, sadly.

My list now looks like this: Keble school, Norfolk house, Avenue PrePrep, Grimsdell. I think NH will offer us a place and I want to like it because it's a 5 minute walk but my gut says no. They have handled the Montessori House take over so poorly it has shaken my confidence in them as a school. Avenue is top of my list and commute is an easy one bus commute so doable.

I really was leaning toward trying our state school and then sitting him for 7+ but am now thinking we won't bother. At someone here's suggestion I called round to Highgate/UCS etc and asked how many state school kids they take at 7+ and was told none to very few because they are so far behind academically. Having spoken to other Montessori parents who tried the state schools they weren't impressed and most had pulled their kids out in reception if a private place became available because their DC were already so far ahead they were bored.

Did ucs and highgate really say that or is that what you wanted to hear? My child just got an offer from one of those schools and got to interview stage at the other from a v normal unposh state primary (at 11+). He also got offer from city. His hit rate didn't seem any different from friends in prep/privates.

Oh and he was never so 'far ahead he was bored'. In fact he was never ahead at all - yes from the kids at the bottom, but he always has a group that he swam with (and is by no means the smartest of those).

Perhaps you didn't quite read the whole thread, thankgoditsover. I spoke to Highgate and UCS regarding 7+ not 11+. I'm not sure why you think I wanted to hear a particular answer but that is what they said. Have a cream egg.

Yes I saw it was 7+, I was just questioning how it could be that all these state school kids are so dramatically behind at 7 yet miraculously equal again at 11.

Oh and I know plenty that also got in at 7, I was just speaking of my own experience.

But you go on believing that your child will be bored by their own brilliance at state school. Frankly people taking coveted reception places and then going off at 7/8 is a right pain for primaries.

Every single child I know who got into our selective secondary private school, whether from state OR prep were tutored for the exams (esp verbal and non verbal reasoning, maths and the interview) for 1-2 years.

A lot of kids at private selective secondary (in fact most that I know) are still being tutored to "keep up".

You sort of enter the rat race, you see, and there is always another set above, that you could/should aim for.

I don't know the school's in question but both my children went from state primary to very selective Indy. They both had tutoring - when they got to their new school, the 3 areas they had to catch up on compared to children who'd been to prep school were Latin, French and sport. These were taught to a much higher standard in the prep schools (Latin wasn't offered at all).

I now tutor children for Entrance exams and 11+ so get to see it from the other side.

I do not live in London but my DD transferred to an independent school from a state primary and was not behind in anything. In fact, she soon became top in French despite never having done it before. Everyone else had. Just because you are state educated, does not mean you are second best and cannot get into a private school. My Dd had no tutoring at all. She did actually sit our County 11+ and was one mark off full marks. If people are not choosing private, it is usually because they cannot afford it or they do not actually want it. You could always transfer to a prep for 2 years at age 11 and do 13 plus CE. This would give you another chance to get into the private sector if you need it.

My DD's state primary (60 per year) in SW London has about 50% going private for secondary. So eminently achievable if that is what you want. If you talk to parents, many who don't go private prefer the state option (which could be a super selective grammar or could be one of the three outstanding comprehensives in the borough) or can't afford private. I clearly don't have perfect information but all indications I am aware of to date suggest this year that anyone wanting their y6 child to "go private" has got an offer they are content to accept.
So, I don't think it would be rational to assume that low numbers going private from your local primary suggests that they are "so far behind"; much more likely is that the parents are opting for other options for good, rational reasons.

We did it as local private school decides intake purely on basis of entrance exams at first year secondary. The feeder primary prepares kids for it but you can buy books and packs on verbal reasoning, maths, non verbal reasoning.
In our area private primaries would have been a waste of money and the extra travel time is more of a disadvantage for young kids and having local friends is a good thing..