Died “with” Covid 19 rather than “from”

[Sosadandempty]

Really noticed this on the News (BBC) today - both the national and regional, presenters saying that frontline workers, including taxi drivers, had died “with” rather than “from” Covid19.

Why the distinction, why not say “from” (which the reporting journalists have continued to say, to be fair).

Because saying "died from Covid" implies that Covid was the direct cause of death.

Dying "with" Covid more accurately reflects the fact that it's not clear, in all cases, whether Covid was the cause of death or something the person happened to have when they died.

For example, someone who tests positive for Covid and then gets run over by a bus the next day has died with Covid but not from Covid.

Yes I know and I am sorry if I was asking the obvious, but surely with healthcare workers and other frontline people they know for a fact that they died from Covid so why try and fudge the issue. That’s how it came across to me anyway.

Yeah but for how may people is it so clear cut that COVID was not the cause of death. Not many I'll bet.

Sorry, that's to jimmyhill

This is something I wonder about too. Someone like me with asthma, very well controlled, never had any emergency with it but would be classed as having a pre-existing condition. Quite a number of these workers could be the same so would the debate be whether the condition or Covid was cause of death?

Yes I find this really confusing (Im autistic so struggle with interpreting things sometimes) If you have asthma for example but up until you caught covid it has been well controlled, managed fine with common cold etc then surely you wouldn't have died had you not caught coronavirus?

The word choice is deliberate. Lots of deaths are being attributed to covid that are actually not proven as covid. If someone has tested positive for covid but died from something else they can say 'died with covid'.

Can't think why they do it as it's obvious it just inflates the figures and makes it appear that covid is killing more people than it is.

Yes, noticed that too. Sounded odd.

@Sosadandempty -Yes I know and I am sorry if I was asking the obvious, but surely with healthcare workers and other frontline people they know for a fact that they died from Covid so why try and fudge the issue. That’s how it came across to me anyway

Why on earth would they know this as fact? Plenty frontline workers have cancer, strokes, diabetic comas, heart attacks, asthmatic attacks, brain haemorrhages, aortic anuerysms, flu, sepsis........

This had been done to death in recent weeks - people need to understand how a death certificate is compiled and the difference between reporting a death in a person with Covid (as it is a notifiable disease) and recording a death in a person with Covid whether or not the Covid led to death or contributed to death or did neither.

Its very complicated and most people have no idea about the systems of recording and reporting deaths in the UK.

I thought it was just another Americanism, like talk 'with' you instead of talk 'to' you. I can see the differences not you've pointed them out though (so now I don't know what to think!). :D

Yes I know and I am sorry if I was asking the obvious, but surely with healthcare workers and other frontline people they know for a fact that they died from Covid so why try and fudge the issue. That’s how it came across to me anyway

It’s the same for healthcare workers. Some may have had sepsis, a heart attack, an unknown underlying disease and would have died anyway with or without CV.

I am led to believe they aren’t carrying out PM’s in the normal way to establish a cause of death (high numbers, risk of infection) so although someone may have tested positive for CV, it won’t be established whether it was from, or there was some other issue. So it’s “with”.

NOW - not 'not'.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3886702-Other-deaths-being-recorded-as-Coronavirus

Lots of deaths are being attributed to covid that are actually not proven as covid.

Works both ways... In care homes there are reports of people who have very likely died from covid but this hasn’t been put on death cert as test hadn’t occurred.

We will never get a fully accurate number... Excess deaths reported by ONS is probably the best way, as even if someone dies of a heart attack without infected and would likely have survived if an ambulance had arrived sooner, Covid is the root cause. That works both ways as well... Covid arguably has saved lives by causing a societal response that has reducing road traffic deaths!

I’m thinking someone should be regarded as having “died of Covid” if Covid was the proximate cause of death.

If you have diabetes and become seriously unwell, your blood sugars become uncontrollable, you slip into a diabetic coma and die; the cause of death is diabetes but you have died ‘with Covid’. There are lots of other similar scenarios. A viral illness is rarely the sole cause of death but has caused another issue that kills you.

I don’t think there is any serious concern that the U.K. is over counting deaths caused by the Covid pandemic.

If you compared deaths registered in the U.K. since the pandemic hit with the average for deaths in those weeks in other years the deaths have increased by more than twice the number of deaths that are being announced as “with Covid”

At a time when official Hospital deaths in the U.K. are just over 21,000 with Covid some estimates of actual extra deaths are about 45,000.

Is it so they don't have to pay the £60,000 to as many families ?

Covid can cause respiratory arrest, organ failure, heart attack as the virus basically forces your body into a multi organ failure scenario. So whilst you might have actually died from a heart attack it was the covid that made that happen. Hence it should be recorded as a covid death.

They are recording deaths, yes some have died from covid, some with it.
There is no distinction. If you test positive and die, it's recorded as covid, whatever the real reason.

They've been saying this for weeks. I don't think it's changed recently.

In care homes there are reports of people who have very likely died from covid but this hasn’t been put on death cert as test hadn’t occurred.

If they "very likely" had coronavirus that should listed on the death certificate. Pretty sure it's in the official guidance.

I also read that a lot of people are dying of heart problems and they are not certain yet but think they may have been brought on by Covid-19. Others appear to have kidney disorders so at the time of death it may still be unclear whether it was the covid that killed them or if the death was coincidental. Given the extra deaths happening, I think it is becoming clearer that the heart issue causing death may be due to Covid. Technically most of the deaths are likely to be caused by acute respitory problems/pneumonia caused by Covid or septic shock in response to Covid rather than the virus itself so it is a more accurate decription to say 'with' rather than 'from'.

It's listed as

1. Bronchopenumonia
2. With probable covid 19 infection

This is just one example

Another example is

1. Dementia / frailty of old age ( with covid 19)

Some certs just say 1. Covid 19 or corona virus, those are the ones that have been tested

Some say 1. Covid 19

1. Pulmonary embolism
2. Copd