What does Zionism and/or anti-Zionism mean to you?

[BaMamma]

My understanding of Zionism is the belief in a Jewish homeland in the place where Judaism originated and where Jews have always lived.

My understanding of anti-Zionism is the opposite, a belief that the Jewish people don't need a homeland and that they are displacing indigenous people through colonization from Europe.

I've been told there are other interpretations of both, in particular that anti-Zionism does not preclude a Jewish state, just not there, or that anti-Zionism is actually opposed to an expansionist Greater Israel project.

It's useful to clarify terminology, so what is your understanding of these terms?

Zionism to me means the expulsion of Palestinian people in lands that they legally occupy, such as the West Bank.

Of course Jewish people need a homeland. It should not illegally be stolen from other people, though.

What is your opinion of a two-state system?

So where do you think the Jewish homeland should be?

I'm not sure a two-state solution is possible anymore. I fear the Palestinian people are too indoctrinated with hate for their Jewish neighbors for it to be viable.

Israel, obviously.

The West Bank is not Israel.

Do you not feel that the indoctrination and hated works both ways?

Where do you propose they have their homeland then?

Scratch my last comment as I didn’t see you had already replied, apologies.

So - you believe Palestine should self govern as an autonomous country, and that it’s actually possible for this to happen without being a security threat to the West and in particular Israel?

What about the parts of Jordan that were once Palestine? I wonder why they only want Israel....
I don't really wonder. We all know why. It's because it's got Jews there.

You sound like a Zionist to me.

I thought Zionism was beyond belief in a Jewish homeland and is more about actively increasing the Jewish population in Israel (large families etc) and increasing the territory of Israel (west bank settlements).

I don't think of anti-zionism as coherent. It could be people who are against Zionism because they don't believe in expansion (including Jewish people in Israel and outside) OR or can be people who are anti-semitic.

Both sides being territorial/political positions rather than ethnic or religious positions.

This could be completely wrong though and I am willing to learn.

Wildflowers99 · Today 23:00

MrsSkylerWhite · Today 22:56
Israel, obviously.
The West Bank is not Israel.
Do you not feel that the indoctrination and hated works both ways?

Scratch my last comment as I didn’t see you had already replied, apologies.
**
So - you believe Palestine should self govern as an autonomous country, and that it’s actually possible for this to happen without being a security threat to the West and in particular Israel?

No worries.

Yes, I do. Throughout history, the things that have ended war and hatred were political stability under benign leaders leading to peace, raised standards of living, education and equal opportunity. I don’t believe that Hamas is representative of Palestinian people - particularly younger people - I believe like most human beings, they just want to live their lives in peace and raise happy, healthy safe children. I suspect most reject the beliefs and hatred that their elders perpetuate. I also suspect that they are terrified to put their heads above the parapet and express that rejection. I think we all know what the result of that would be.

I’m not a Jewish person. I think I have a slight inkling of the threat that Jewish families living in Israel feel, though (in fact, living anywhere atm). Again, history. Anyone who can’t understand that fear is pretty stupid, frankly. Jewish people have been outrageously vilified for thousands of years so I absolutely understand why they are always watchful.

The whole situation is horrible. Misery on both sides. I’m an atheist so I don’t have any answers. I can see both sides.

All I know is that this slaughter has to stop. Though the chances of that with the terrible leadership on both sides seem vanishingly slim.

I just cling to the hope that if the Good Friday Agreement was brokered, maybe just maybe the situation isn’t as hopeless as it seems.

BidoofBlue · Today 23:21

MrsSkylerWhite · Today 22:56
Israel, obviously.
The West Bank is not Israel.
Do you not feel that the indoctrination and hated works both ways?

You sound like a Zionist to me

What on earth are you talking about?

I’mnot Jewish?!

I suggest you read the exchange again.

My point was that some Israeli’s hate Palestinians as much as some Palestinians hate Israelis.

Israel is now Israel. Whether or not it should be is now lost in 1948.

Jewish settlers should absolutely not be illegally staking claim to the West Bank.

Is that clear enough for you? WTF is Zionist about that?

I never said you're Jewish?

You said you think the Jewish homeland should be in Israel. Which sounds like Zionism.

You said you think the Jewish homeland should be in Israel. Which sounds like Zionism.

I also said “Israel is now Israel. Whether or not it should be is now lost in 1948”

Personally, I think the 1948 land grab was wrong, a desperate scrabble to try to pacify an historic, proud and strong but forcibly nomadic nation that had been reprehensibly let down in its time of need by its various hosts, who cobbled together an ill thought out “plan”, without considering the future consequences.

Just to make it crystal clear to you, I think Netanyahu and his right wing nutters are a bunch of cunts. I also think that Hamas is a bunch of cunts.

I am most certainly not a Zionist. I’m a pragmatist. Clear enough for you,

Given that you clearly thought only Jewish people can be Zionists, you clearly don't even know what the word means.

BidoofBlue
**
Given that you clearly thought only Jewish people can be Zionists, you clearly don't even know what the word means

Zionism means the founding of an independent Jewish state. Why would anyone who wasn’t Jewish have an interest in that?

I’m not a Buddhist, a Christian, a Sikh, a Muslim,, a Quaker, a Shinto, a Mormon, a Zoroastrian, a Pagan, a Jehovah’s Witness or any other religion you can think of. I’ve run out.

I wouldn’t want to establish a state for any of those, for the same readn

I don’t believe in god!

Why on earth would anyone who wasn’t Jewish have any interest in founding a Jewish state? Really, that’s just silly.

Maybe look up the definition of words before you lecture people on them.

I'm not Jewish, but I am a Zionist because a basic understanding the history of antisemitism makes the necessity of a Jewish state abundantly clear.

I don't think this is the case, you just need to be someone 'who advocates for an independent Jewish state where Jews can live in safety'

Going back to your 1948 post do you think any state for Jewish people should have been created?

I believe that jewish people should have a homeland because history has shown that they arent safe living amongst non jews. I understand the significance and safety that Israel holds for many jews and i don't think they should be denied that. Why shouldn't it be in the place where they are originally from? Aside from that, it's happened now so there's no going back.

The West Bank has many significant Jewish sites. To say that there is no Jewish history there is just plain wrong. They were expelled long before any Palestinians lived there. That doesn't mean I agree with people being expelled to make way for Jewish settlers. I don't at all, but to deny that they have history there and are just European colonisers as is a common claim, is ridiculous

Oh this will go well I fear...

anyway, left wing Jew popping in to say that in Jewish circles, generally, Zionism just means belief in the existence of the state of Israel. It doesn't inherently mean supporting what the state does. The conflation of the two things winds up causing a lot of harm. There's many strands of Zionism.

Every anti-Zionist I've known, and based on how I understand it this should be the definition, is opposed to the existence of the state. There's actually multiple reasons for that, not just settler colonialism. For example many Hasidic Jews have traditionally opposed a state because they believe it's against religious law for us to create a new state before the arrival of the Messiah. You'll also find people who oppose Israel because it's an ethnostate, or because they believe in Diasporism.

There are also non-Zionists who are neither for nor against.

Thats the meaning of zionism in non jewish circles too. As you say there are diffetent strands but the basic meaning at the heart is simple and anyone further complicating it usually has an agenda.

Im not Jewish but believe that the Jewish people have the same right to self determination as anyone else. Its about human rights, safety and fulfillment. Im very sorry you think that's silly and that you have to be Jewish to believe that Jewish people should be afforded the same rights as anyone else.

Its got very little to with god as entirely secular Jews have been at the same risk of persecution as observant Jews and all have the right to return to Israel.

Zionism is simply the belief that the Jewish people have the right to self determination and to deny them is antisemitic.

Worth knowing that in the USA there's now more Christian Zionists than Jewish ones. There's a bunch of reasons but one of the ickier ones is the belief of some people (generally evangelical Protestants I believe) that Jews need to return to Israel to fulfill some prophecies about the end times.

I have run into more than a few people who think that the distinction between Zionist and anti-Zionist is about supporting Israel and its actions more actively, rather than just about the basic existence of a state. A friend of mine got called both a "Zio b*tch" and a "self hating Jew" in the same Twitter thread because she opposes the war and the government but not the state itself.

I am a Zionist. I believe in a homeland for the Jewish nation in our ancient homeland, and we have this in the state of Israel. That's what Zionism is, a belief in a Jewish homeland in Israel. Other than sharing this belief, Zionists will have differing views on what Zionism means to them.
To me, having a Jewish state means that "Never again" is not a hope or a wish, it's an actuality. It means that there is somewhere that Jews are not 'other'.
It doesn't mean that only Jews should live there or that non Jews should be treated as less than. That is 'our land' doesn't mean it isn’t also the land of other people. It doesn't mean that I can't criticise the actions of the Israeli government.
Anti Zionism is the belief that Jews should not have a home land. For some anti Zionists it's also the belief that Jews should be expelled from Israel. For some, it is the belief that their antisemitism doesn't count if they call it anti Zionism.
A relatively small number of Jews are anti Zionists because of their religious beliefs.

I’m being lazy and quoting myself from a few months ago (my views are unchanged- and I’m a religious Orthodox Jew)

Zionism is the belief that there should be a homeland for the Jewish people in our ancestral land of Israel. That’s not at the exclusion of other people living there too.
For religious Jews, Zionism has a meaning separate from political Zionism - it refers to our eternal longing for our return to our homeland, the coming of the messiah and to rebuild the third temple. It’s central to our belief system, we pray towards Jerusalem three times a day, and our longing to return to Zion (another name for Jerusalem) is referred to in our daily prayers and blessings over and over again, prayers said by generations of Jews, (for about 2500 years ) - since the destruction of the second temple. Zionism is inextricably intertwined with Judaism, although they are not the same thing.

Political Zionism is a secular construct, and is not the same as religious Zionism.
To be a religious Jew is to be inextricably a Zionist in some form, regardless of opinions on the political structures/ Israeli government/ state of Israel.

As above, the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Israel (i.e. the core zionistic belief) does not mean it should be at the exclusion of other people peacefully co-existing in Israel.

I’ll add this time that many of our mitzvos (commandments) only apply in Israel, and are bound to the land.

Anti Zionist is a protected belief: