This IS a thread about a thread

[Mintyy]

but I am doing it because I don't want to upset the op of the other thread, and I don't want to hijack what she has started.

But can we please de-bunk the myth that anyone can have a lovely birth as long as they are PREPARED and have the right mental attitude! It is extremely damaging psychologically for women to feel that they have failed (if they had interventions/caesarian/still birth) because they were not properly tutored or well-read enough in childbirth.

The healthiest, most physically and mentally perfect women can have things go mildly wrong or catstrophically wrong in childbirth. All the birthing classes in the world cannot fix that.

Am v angry!

Very damaging and very annoying and very ill-informed and a very silly thing to put about on a parenting website where, by its very nature, many many women who have had traumatic births will be present.

Hmmmppphhh.

I agree.

My birth plan consisted of (I was being induced): Go to hospital; have a baby (by whatever means); and come home. My midwife kept insisting I produce a "proper" birth plan so I'd get what I want! I'd get what I want with my birth plan! A Baby!

For me, you can only be "prepared" (in the loosest terms) for so much. You just never know what is going to happen. If you go with a birth plan that you've put your heart and soul in to and everything must be just so, you spend more time worrying about that than the job in hand.

In my circumstances any so called "proper" birth plan would have gone out the window. After contractions were forced to start I quickly moved on to the epidural. To cut a long story short, I ended up with an emergency c section as DS got stuck and his oxygen levels dropped.

I do feel that some midwifes put too much on ladies and the birth plan.

I agree, no idea about the thread though

I went in to hospital to be induced, ended up being induced painfully 5 times, finally finishing in a crash section,

I'm still not over it

I agree, people often talk about an elective cs as a way of avoiding that 'anything can happen' feeling, talking about being calm, prepared, knowing what is going to happen.

I had an elective with ds, because of damage caused by my previous 2 births. It was the worst of all 3, and I still can't bear to think about it. I lost a lot of blood, had a reaction to the drugs, which left me shaking uncontrollably and vomiting, I couldn't hold ds, and then the mw realised that ds was unable to feed or suck and was struggling to breathe so was rushed to nicu.

All births are different, there is no guarantee to a trouble free birth. Shit just happens.

Yes yes yes!!

My birth plan only had that I wanted my partner to be there. Nothing else.

In fact, I was really against using the pool. First thing I did upon arrival..? Jump in the pool.

Hear hear! I spent many a day on the wards during my daughters 3 month stay in neonatal watching mums come and go in pieces because their birth didn't go to plan. Expectations = disappointment. I thought about pointing out that I'd happily swap my 28 weeks arrival, 3 neonatal blood transfusions and a serious stomach infection for their forceps delivery! Would have just sounded bitter! Seriously though, a plan to leave hospital with a healthy baby by hook or by crook has just about got to be the best thing any woman can have. Seemed a shame that women with just that thing left hospital feeling devastated by minor things like not being able to have a water birth. Jeez, where do I start?

My friend is due her dc1 any day and was telling me that she wants a totally natural birth, no drugs, and to breastfeed immediately.

And I have told her that's great, fingers crossed it will all go smoothly, but it is also perfectly normal to be negotiating with the midwives over the strongest painkillers they can legally give you, and that sometimes breastfeeding isn't as easy as shoving a newborn on your boob. But that sometimes it is.

And that any which way is fine.

Hear hear. I had a failed ventouse and forceps delivery. Just to clear up a few myths I did NCT, I laboured in water, I didn't have an epidural and I was upright and active throughout.

I also had a extremely distressed baby who needed to be delivered immediately once I'd already started pushing. She needed to be resuscitated when she was born. She would have died if the Dr hadn't been able to deliver her as quickly as he did.

I still feel like a failure and as though people think I should have done something differently. It's an awful feeling when I should be proud i delivered a beautiful baby.

Of the 6 women in my NCT group not one of us had a straightforward birth. 2 instrumentals, 2 retained placentas, 3 episiotomies, 2 EMCS. Speaks volumes for how first births can go.

I had 6 in my NCT class too.

We had 3 planned home births: 2 transferred in to hospital where one had an emcs and the other had venthouse delivery. The third delivered fine at home but had retained placenta so had to be transferred in to hospital anyway for delivery of the placenta.

Of the 3 who started off in hospital, 1 had venthouse, 1 had straightforward delivery (but she had actually delivered a stillborn baby before, so it was her second labour and birth ) and me, who had a crash c/section where mum and baby where minutes from death.

I wonder what the odds are?

Yup, from someone who wanted natural with G&A and ended up with pitocin, pethidine, water pool, epidural, G&A, morphine and ECS.

Probably higher than we think Minty. The stats that you look at show figures for all women. I'm sure we'd be quite shocked at rates of intervention if first time mothers were counted separately. I still think it would be a good thing as it may make people adjust their expectations accordingly??

I don't know the thread you mean but I agree with you completely Mintyy and I am glad you and your little one are OK. All the natural childbirth advocates forget how many mothers and babies died before modern medical advances.

I was induced for DD at 40+8 as waters were leaking and I didn't go into labour naturally. Of course a friend who was into everything being natural told me not to accept the induction and wait for labour to start - but there is a risk to Mum and baby after 24 hours so I accepted the induction.The drip makes contractions very painful so I had an epidural which was wonderful and thankfully DD was born naturally after a 12 hour labour - had a post partum haemmorrage (over 1 litre) so I felt a bit rubbish for a few hours afterwards but my labour and birth were far from traumatic compared to stories I have heard (and read on MN). I am all in favour of medical interventions as they save lives.

At 41 weeks with baby 2 it looks as if I am not going to go into labour naturally again so am booked for induction on Monday and will very very likely be having epidural again. I don't understand why so many women are so keen to have 'no pain relief and no interventions' as if it is a badge of honour.

"anyone can have a lovely birth as long as they are PREPARED and have the right mental attitude! "

If they think that they aren't prepared. Being prepared means having researched the shit that can happen and coming up with realistic ways you'd prefer it to be dealt with. I just do not comprehend women who refuse to consider the possible outcomes because it would make them feel negative/impact their lovely hypnobirthing preparation/they've done everything right so it won't happen and you don't need to think about it.

I say as someone who had what many would consider a lovely natural birth (G&A, 2nd degree tear) and an easy breastfeeding experience (despite thrush and upper lip tie which was only recently diagnosed at 18months).

I had an awful birth the first time. The second time I woke up on ITU minus my uterus and with a transected ureter and 16 units of transfused blood. I had done research. I am related to two midwives and work in a doctors surgery. It's not like I wasn't prepared.

I know very few women who have given birth with no trauma to either themselves or their DC.

I think I was as prepared as possible for the births of both my DSes.
I'd done NCT, read up on everything, stayed fit and healthy, antenatal yoga, everything.
I was not entirely prepared for the stop/start 53 hours of labour, the failed augmentation, the EMCS where I got a backwash from the anaesthetic and stopped breathing.
Attempted VBAC with DS2, ended up vomiting over myself while having another section.
Because DS2 nearly died from an undiagnosed heart defect 10 days later, now that I'm pg with DC3, genuinely all I want is a healthy baby.
I care not how it arrives. Or for anyone else's views on my choices.

I think we generally put far to much pressure on ourselves in many aspects of our lives and it is so very unnecessary. It does, however, take a long time to look at it like that.

I like what clabysqueen wrote, '...by hook or by crook.' The objective is to produce, safely, the wonderful child that has been inside your body for a while; the method is irrelevant.

I used to get like this over Christmas dinner (sorry about the unimportant analogy!!!) If I knew I had cut corners or had not done things in the way that I had wanted to, I found it hard to relax and enjoy the meal, everyone else would be having a great time and filling bellies. It took me a while to get over this obsession of doing things how I planned them and to learn that the end result is what is important, not how I get there.

Ladies, don't beat yourselves up over it!! The gorgeous children are here and that was always the goal. Failures you are not.

Thank you Mintyy for this thread...the other one made me cross too.

I had a horrendous birth, still feels like a miracle that I have a healthy child after it. He's 14 months now and I'm still not sure I'll ever put myself through it again for a second. I had awful PND afterwards.

I feel like it's my duty to be honest about how hard it can be, and not perpetuate the myth of "ideal motherhood" - I don't want to scare anyone, but I'd also hate to lie and make someone else feel crap because they found it tough too

BitBewildered you poor thing that sounds really really horrendous. Thank God you and both your babies were OK in the end.

From reading other peoples experiences on MN and talking to frends in real life I think my birth experience was more or less 'average' - some interventions ie needing to be induced and needing an epidural (what did women ever do without them!) - also losing over 1 litre of blood but not needing a transfusion thankfully. DD also had a trace on her head but luckily was never in any distress.

I do think there is far too much emphasis on this natural birth experience stuff which only works for a minority of women. Why put yourself through agony if an epidural is there to ease the pain?

With my 2nd child (birth imminent am 41 plus one, induction likely on Monday) I will be thankful for a healthy baby and that I come out of it not feeling totally crap and with all my body parts still in working order.

Oh and I couldn't do breastfeeding either....lasted 10 days - may have been the pph or the stress of the birth but I really was producing hardly any milk. Yes breast may be best and more natural but bf doesn't work for everyone.

Cheers InaDreamWorld, we're all fine now, but if someone dared to imply that any of it happened because I failed in some way I'd verbally blast them off the planet!

Where is the other thread? I've been immersed in the crazy MIL one in AIBU

BitBewildered I want to find the other thread too..?? No one could think you failed in any way at all and I am so glad you are all OK.

When I am asked for advice about preparing for birth, I say its a bit like preparing for marriage. Its really helpful to have thought about whats coming and what is likely to be a priority for you but unrealistic to only plan for perfection. Good birth preparation should help you deal with the process if its straightforward but also some strategies for getting through the non-straightforward.

If I end up with a woman who has a difficult experience, I always try to say something positive about how she dealt with it eg how she managed to be funny when she talked to the anaesthetist, or pushed really well with the ventouse or was holding the baby right after the cs. That sort of thing. I don't want to deny that the experience was hard but want to implant some positive perceptions from the beginning.

In the thread in question, the OP was particularly vulnerable and posted in a similar vain some months ago something similar. I think its someone who is genuine. So it really needed/needs a particularly sensitive approach and why it is probably better to keep this debate here rather than link to it.

The responses that sparked this thread were made by another poster who seems to be a strong natural birth advocate with three home births under her belt, and no clue whatsoever.