What would you think if you saw a ....

[opinionsplease]

harrassed mum pull down her dd's knickers and smack her bum in the street?

I've changed my name in case I get recognised.

I am HORRIFIED that so many of you seem to believe that because somebody is working class, they are more than happy to beat their child!

Some people have been watching too much Little Britain. Not all working class women behave like Vicky Pollard, but you wouldn't believe it by the way they are commonly portrayed

Do middle class parents love their children more than working class parents? That is the message that some of you seem to be putting across.

ie, Parents who love their children don't hit them. Working class people hit their children.

think this thread has been kinda taken out of contest somewhat.......

LOL colditz, only two people had said here that it could be to do with class - and were only suggesting not stating.

And the love of a child has not been in discussion at all.

FWIW i used to live on a run down estate and see children being smacked regularly round at the local shops. Now i live in a more affluent area i have not once seen a child smacked - and am coming into more contact with children and parents now as i have dd and we go to p&c groups etc. So maybe class does have something to do with it.

Fran - similar experience here. When I lived in two different city centres (1 northwest, I south east so not really a geographical thing IME) I witnessed quite a lot of swearing at children, smacking and pulling them along the pavement very roughly. Now live in a rather nice little village near a small fairly affluent town and cannot remember the last time I saw anything dodgy. Not suggesting it doesn?t happen, but the difference is noticeable. I wonder if it is that around here people really care what each other thinks and that there is a lot of front and "supermums" "playing" at happy families in front of their peers? Interesting discussion.
I know it is a little contentious and that the potential for offending people from different backgrounds and social situations is huge. Hope that it can steer away from offending and just stick to discussing different opinions and experiences - off to sort out the kids and will be back to check on this thread later

fran, I think parents are more likely to smack when they feel under pressure in some way. Parents on a run down council estatas may just have more problems in their lives than parents in affluent middle class areas. I think it's got more to do with stress than with class.

Just to blow your theory out of the water. We are from the South and there is no way my friend could be described as lower class. Very well off in fact.

i haven't read all replies.
I think that's a vile thing to do, total power kick pulling down the knickers, i hate even writing it as it makes me cringe in disgust.
If you haven't had a word, i would give her a ring and get on to the subject and let her know that she's scarring her daughter for life with such total and utter pointless humiliation!

things like that infuriate me.
I don't smack but can understand how i might, but i would NEVER humiliate for power!

I don't think the class divides exist anymore as people have so much more social mobility. What would I be? My grandfather was a high ranking civil servant while my mother married an illegal immigrant and worked in a bookies. I went to a redbrick uni, I read the guardian and took on a nice safe job in teaching. I then married into a very wealthy family and lived the champagne lifestyle to the full only then to end up homeless when the marriage broke down. I now live a very m/c churchy pillar of the community lifestyle with my proffessional partner whom himself has a background very similar to mine. Has my class changed with my life situation?

I don't think we said it was a class thing but to do with circumstances, pressure and living environment. Of course you can't generalise, but most smacking is done when parents are under immense pressure and have been pushed beyond their limit. The time when I smacked was because I was broke, in temporary accomodation, hungry knackered and desperate. Now that I live in my nice semi in a leafy suburb and have relatively few worries I am not pushed to that extreme.

I think basket case also has a point about mums who may be defined as more m/c playing at supermum so they may still be smacking their children but behind closed doors so as not to tarnish their boden wearing, mother earth lets make paper mache image. I know of a circle of mums who from the outside look the "daily Mail" ideal of SAHMdom but are in fact all on antidepressants all miserable and very stressed at their kids but they continue with their charade (sp?) of lovliness to each other.

I do it myself this sunday woke up in a foul mood, shouted at dd for something so minor that I can't remember told dp he was a shithead and I wanted to leave him. We then all put on our Sunday best and went to church like a happy united family all smiles and holding hands. Over tea and scones after mass I waxed lyrical about my adoring partner and fantastic daughter. I then went home and went to bed as I couldn't bear the thought of playing happy familiesa any longer

I saw a woman in the bank a few years ago who did just this to her ds. Admittedly her ds was being a complete PITA and she had been swearing at him to stop. Had she just smacked his bottom I probably wouldn't have said/done anything. However, she also pulled down his trousers and pants and slapped his bum about 2 or 3 times - one after the other. I'm afraid I completely flipped my lid at this and bellowed "What do you think you're doing? Stop it right now!" at her. She, of course, proceeded to swear her head at me and told me to mind my own f*ing business but I'm still glad I did it. I just hope the little boy didn't get worse later because of it. I'll admit I was shaking like a leaf afterwards and my heart rate was through the roof. The bank manager came up to me when she'd gone (typical) to see if I was ok and said she was often in there doing the same thing. I couldn't believe it and thought why don't you do something then?

at strength of response colditz. Not what i meant and sorry if you perceived it this way.

I have just doene my social sciences exam which included the class divide in healthcare for example - black report. (passed btw ) basically poor housing, environment, diet etc has a huge impact on the mental health of the individual as affects locus of control and stress levels thus increasing risk of depressions etc. It also effect how coping mechanisms work and what i was suggesting that perhaps we see more displays of this frustration for these reasons.

I do believe that smacking often goes on behind closed doors and wonder if that happens because those who do smack in private would do so in public for fear of reprisal and actually deep down feel that there is a better way of managing.

OP - you havent blown cover btw I am from down south myself and there are plenty of areas here that are poorer and have less support and it is in these areas i see it. btw i am not well off myself and am not wanting a class debate because i think it happens accross classes but more noticeable in certain places.

hi twinset btw disagree with you as believe class divide still very much exists. hope essay going ok

Haven't read the whole thread but I'd be disgusted.

Yes I use smacking as part of a wide range of 'punishments' and I've even smacked DS1 while out of the house. He gets warned 3 times that if his behaviour continues he'll get a smack - and only after the 3rd warning does he get a smack.

But I wouldn't even dream of pulling his pants down - what complete humiliation.

I can see in some area a class divide still exists, I have worked in mining towns and there is was a strong working class culture there and I can also think of some very typically middle class people who I went to university with or now work with. So at the extremes of society those class divides still exist.

But there is a vast gulf in the middle that does not fit the working class/middle class dividers/descriptors due to their social mobilty or the fact that their life is a cobbled hotchpotch of middle/working class ideals and attributes.

For example where would you put me? I don't know the answer, maybe i would feel happier and more at ease if I knew where I belonged!!

The essay is going very well thanks have spent the day in the library, now just facing the dilemna of should I do my part for the community and go to the drama club i help run for local families or should I be selfish and just do my essay!

I remember my dad pulling my knickers down and smacking me, it was horrible. I hated him for that, and I don't do that, they might get a smack on the hand or leg, but I am trying not to smack

I'm middle class, but my children get a daily beating whether they need it or not

I guess what I was trying to put across is this.

A lot of posters have expressed their disgust at seeing mothers smacking children.

A lot of posters have admitted that in times of extreme stress, they have smacked their children.

So, really, what these posters are expressing disgust at is a mother under extreme stress!

(I am well aware that I over reacted to the 'class' comments btw)

In less affluent areas, the smacking is more visable, but I don't believe it is any more frequent. Mothers tend not to have cars, they walk, with all their children to the supermarkets. when you see them out and about, they are not on lovely middle class days out, they are running errands, paying bills they can ill-afford to pay, buying groceries they can ill-afford to buy, they have sometimes walked a long way, they are tired, their children are tired, and tired children nag, whine and moan.

They then have to contend with sweets at the checkout, nag nag nag, not enough money for sweets at the checkout, nag nag nag...

Then they have to get that great pile of shopping, which they didn't want to buy in the first place, home.

All of us who have had children who can talk have been nagged relentlessly. And if you are feeling detatched from the 'Boden Brigade' anyway, because you have nothing in common with them, you are not going to care what they think of you.

I have not yet succumbed to smacking, but my God if I lived like that I would have done by now.

We are all only human. It is easy to lose your temper, it is easy to scream and shout, and it is easy to condemn people without thinking about why they have behaved the way they do.

I hate to see smacking but I can understand parents lose their temper.
why on earth would a parent pull down a childs pants? That is far more humilating than the smack! Completely unacceptable.

"So, really, what these posters are expressing disgust at is a mother under extreme stress! "

No - I'm expressing disgust at the fact she felt the need to humiliate her daughter by pulling her pants down. I smack my children (never out of anger - but after 3 warnings) and would never DREAM of pulling either of their pants down to smack them

I think the pulling the pants down & smacking is akin to I've had enough of you & I'm BLOODY GONNA SHOW IT NOW

opinionsplease what happened after said deed ? Did the harrassed mum calm down, did DD scream her head off ?

It's a terrible shame & that little girl will
probably remember it forever

Personally I would have stepped in when I saw the knickers come down & said something like, steady on, do you really want to do that ? I suspect the knickers coming down might have enough of a punishment......

colditz - dont want tension - i just wanted to clarify that I dont smack and havent either and hope i never do.

Also what i was tryingt o say is that (and evidence proves it too) is that in poorer areas stress levels etc are higher and this can affect people in a detrimental way and with increased levels of stress i guess it is more likely to see impulsive reactions iyswim. I am not talking systematic child abuse I am talking stressed out parents and not knowing how to channel it. I think there needs to be more support for those under increased stress and perhaps more logically and idealistically that those stress triggers are addressed. I have very very recently done an essay on social sceinces and addressed the class divide in terms of health equality and it is well known that there is such a divide hence masses of government papers trying ot redress problem.

Think we have clashed before on threads not meaning ot 'rub' you up the wrong way either.

TWaP - glad essay going well

do not think this woman was beating her child...and again say this thread has been taken more than a lot out of context. For whatever reasoning this woman chose to scold her child this way........unless we know this child is being abused and neglected by this parent who are we to judge this....yes many would say this is abuse these days, although I for one would not....but would we a few years ago.....I think not.

kgc - so is it ok for a man to hit his wife? or is that abuse? Not that many years ago the dr would provide the husband with the birch to use when chastising wife.

I was saw a programme where a child said it would prefer to be smacked than shouted at!!
They said it was very frightening to have some one shout at them.
So now tell me none have you have ever raised your voice?!!

"so is it ok for a man to hit his wife? or is that abuse? "

No it's not ok. But we don't 'discipline' adults in the same we do children..........most of us (I hope LOL) wouldn't put our DH on the naughty step, or threaten to take away a favourite toy! We have to remember that yes - children ARE humans, but they're NOT adults.

And there is a HUGE difference (IMO) between discipling a child with a smack, along with acompanying warnings/explanations afterwards........to BEATING a child out of rage/anger/hatred etc etc

TBH I think the main issue here isn't the smack but the pulling the pants down in public. I doubt the child on the TV programme would be quite so blase about being smacked on a bare bum in a public place! Also as a non-smacker the child's comments confirm that in many cases the smack is completely ineffectual....