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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

AIBU Jesus V Santa Not for small eyes

53 replies

VereDuckworthsHandbag · 08/11/2008 08:11

Friends son (child A) had a play date with child B.
While there they were talking about Christmas and child A said it was Jesus birthday, the Mother of child B tells child A there is no Jesus, gave a long list of her reasoning. Child A tells his mother when he gets home, the mother of child A has now told child B that through blatant commercialism and coca cola an image was created from a folk tale and there is no you know who, Child B took this more to heart then child A who still believes in his faith and the rather nice SC who brings him gifts, both mothers are firmly at war now though.

I am parent of child C who is friends with A and B so have had the whole story from both sides.
I do feel attacking someone's religion is worse then attacking someones fairy tale.
Kids are all 7 (and yes mine believe ).

I think is has all got a bit out of hand though and am trying to stay out of the "great debate" that has taken over the play ground, AIBU

OP posts:

MaryBS · 08/11/2008 08:16

I think the 2 mothers concerned are BOTH out of order . Those poor children!

Attacking someone's religion IS worse than attacking someone's fairy tale. But what's even worse than that is deliberately destroying Christmas for a child, and probably causing him to doubt anything his parents tell him for good measure. And that's what mother of B did to child A. And I speak as a Christian.

I think staying out of it is the best solution, but I don't envy you...

MaryBS · 08/11/2008 08:17

Sorry, that should be "the mother of child A did to child B"

chocolateteapot · 08/11/2008 08:18

That is awful, I can't believe either of the mothers commented on what the children said. I always make vague "oh" and "I see" and "is that right" if a child says something I might not agree with.

Both of them need their heads banging together but if pushed to take a side I think I would agree you that attacking religion is worse than attacking a fairy tale.

QuintessentialShadow · 08/11/2008 08:26

Oh how horrible.

The mother of Child B had taken the opportunity to discredit the religion of child A, no need for that. It is disrespecting his faith. And that is a really inconsiderate thing to do, when you know the family is Christian, you dont preach your atheism to a Christian child.

I can see why mother of child A said there is not santa to child B. I wouldn't have done it, but I can see why she did. It is the truth. Everybody knows that.

As a Christian, I would stop contact between the families, as I would not want anybody with so little respect for my belief in my circle of close friends, and for sure not in charge of my child.

But how far can you take this? My cousin does a prayer before each meal, but we dont. She does not insist we do it when we all eat together, but I wont stop her either, if you see what I mean.

But everybody does not know that there is no Jesus.

BouncingTurtle · 08/11/2008 08:26

I think they are as bad as each other.
I am also a Christian and I fully intend to tell ds the story of Jesus BUT I don't mind him to believing in Santa too - it's just to me an essential part of Christmas for the little ones.

thesockmonsterofdoom · 08/11/2008 08:27

I am not sure I agree that criticising religion is any worse than critiscing a fairy tale.
What both of these mothers did is shocking, childish and very selfish, they have both destroyed the magic of christmas for children.
Whatever you believe you have no right to undermine another parents views.

Kimi · 08/11/2008 08:31

In our house I read the Christmas story to the children every Christmas eve (child bible version) and at bed time I read the night before Christmas (Although I suspect the 12 year old has get fed up by now).

WifeandMotherof4 · 08/11/2008 08:32

How old are these children? For me both of these beliefs are just 'stories' and at a certain age both are as valuable as eachother to whichever child. I am surprised either mother got so involved. I do think a wider arguement of belief is credible for Jesus and so no myth need be dispelled when another child says it has no faith, Christians have had this opposition before. But the Father Christmas one is the more about the magic of childhood.

WifeandMotherof4 · 08/11/2008 08:34

PS. My children (and I'm an Atheist) have the story of Jesus and the night beofer Christmas every Christmas eve....
I think it's good to know why many people celebrate Christmas even if we are commercial fools who love the importance of family and giving at this time.

broguemum · 08/11/2008 08:34

Sockmonster, you are braver than me. I was going to post earlier this morning exactly what you did but walked away as I did not want to get involved in any respect-for-religion debate but now you've voiced it, I'll second it.

Kimi · 08/11/2008 08:35

I don't believe in gods with Elephants trunks and 6 arms but I would never say so to DSs Hindu friends, its about respecting someone's choice, we send Eid and Dawili cards to our non Christian friends and we get Christmas cards from them, its a little thing called respect.

My children believe in God, and they have been to lapland and met "Santa".

QuintessentialShadow · 08/11/2008 08:36

Quite Kimi.
We know Hindu and Muslim families, and NO WAY is it ok to lash onto their children and attack their faith.

broguemum · 08/11/2008 08:37

as in I second that I am not sure that criticising religion is any worse than critiscing a fairy tale but that whatever you believe you have no right to undermine another parents views and to damage how a child views a special time i.e. Christmas.

staryeyed · 08/11/2008 09:39

Sorry it has to be said: you cant not argue that there is no Jesus because there is so much evidence that he did exist (dont want to get into a religious debate). You can argue that Jesus is not the son of God or even there is no god but mother B's argument doesn't make sense.

Also Jesus' birthday is the reason for christmas whether you believe it or not so why that mother felt the need to correct the child is very odd.

sunnydelight · 08/11/2008 09:40

I can see why the mother of Child A would be furious and SO TEMPTED to say "there is no Santa" (I can feel that woman's anger and I do think dissing someone's religion is worse than not upholding a fairy tale} but I would hope that as an adult she would have held her breath and counted to ten before saying nothing. What a nightmare!

2shoes · 08/11/2008 09:50

to diss someones religion is bad enough if said person is an adult, but to do it to a child is unforgivable imo. I don't think you can compare religion with santa.

NayNayAndThriceNay · 08/11/2008 10:45

Both are fairy tales in my opinion. Agree that they are destroying the magic of christmas for both kids which is a shame.
People shouldn't be attacked for whatever they believe in, real or not.
(slinks off to wrap some presents from you know who)

theSuburbanDryad · 08/11/2008 10:54

It says a lot that Child A's faith is still secure but Child B's belief in SC is lost!

Agree they are both fairy tales! But still out of order for the parents to get involved at all IMO - they should have let the kids sort it out between them!

bythepowerofgreyskull · 08/11/2008 11:06

What is wrong with this is that there is no suggestion anywhere that a man called Jesus existed. this is not in question - so to suggest it is incorrect.
The only question is if he was a fantasist/troublemaker or if he was the son of God
so to suggest that there was no such person as Jesus.

But the more basic question is if you should publicly dismiss a childs beliefs be them fantasy or not.
both very wrong. IMO you are right to try to stay out of it.

ermintrude13 · 08/11/2008 11:08

children can't believe in god in any meaningful way, I'm with r dawkins on that one. they believe in him the same way as they believe in santa and the easter bunny etc etc. but their parents are free to bring them up within a religious tradition, or with no religion, and while the two sides may not respect one another's opinions they have to respect their rights to hold those opinions.

quintessentialshadow you can't expect atheists to respect views that to us seem entirely bonkers. but we can respect your right to hold them and practice your religion. i bet you think we're bonkers too.

my ds has one or two tediously self-righteous friends from christian families who say things like 'i there is a god.' and my ds says 'nobody that, i don't think there is.' and i keep well out of it unless asked to intervene, in which case i say something bland about people having different opinions about god but most people thinking we should all get along with each other all the same. trying to disabuse little children of what their parents tell them about religion is completely out of order - same as if a christian tried to tell a child whose parents were atheists that there definitely is a baby jesus.

bible stories are so much part of our literary and cultural tradition that i don't want my dc to miss out on them so like wifeandmotherof4 i tell them the story of baby j along with pagan, jewish, shakespearean, dickensian, classical and many other warming winter tales.

Flamesparrow · 08/11/2008 11:15

It is not up to friend's parents to tell a child who is not theirs that their belief is wrong.

Mine are being raised being told pagan beliefs and Christian (to cover both me and DH - if I knew more about other religions I would most likely chuck them in too). I would be furious if someone told Flamechick that her belief that god/goddess is all around us and in everyone was crap. I would be even more furious if they told her that santa was crap.

Religious belief can continue to grow and evolve over time.

Magical beliefs like Santa, Tooth Fairy are a childhood only deal.

Mine get told about Yule and the story of the birth of the god from the goddess on Yule, and the story of Jesus at school, and Santa coming up to Christmas. There is no reason why they cannot co-exist.

Both mums are bitches imo, and I wouldn't particularly fancy being mates with either

VanessaParody · 08/11/2008 11:19

Regardless of personal beliefs, it's plain nasty to speak to 7yo children like this in what appears to be a clear attempt to upset them.

My 7yo DD1 is among the more mature in her class and could probably debate this reasonably well in the right environment. But not against an adult who is dictating their fixed and non-flexible position.

You are certainly not BU to keep out of it. If they push you on the subject, I'd say "I think you were both wrong to impose your views on children, who should be free to believe what they want, until they are old enough to question their own parents".

revjustabout · 08/11/2008 11:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsNormanMaine · 08/11/2008 11:23

They sound like shockers. And there probably was a Jesus - historically. Personally I doubt he was the son of god, more likely a charismatic leader of a kind of rebel movement. But I guess she didn't want to get into that debate. And Father C is about magic and a symbol of generosity. Leave the poor old fella alone. I half believe in him myself, even I as crunch the carrot and talk a few bites from his mince pie I have a listen out for sleigh bells...just in case.

onager · 08/11/2008 11:28

Rude and immature on both sides there though of course the phrase "Attacking someone's religion IS worse than attacking someone's fairy tale" to me is the same as saying "Attacking someone's fairy tale IS worse than attacking someone's fairy tale"

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