To worry about DS future because of this

[Sunshining20]

My 4 year oldS behaviour is breaking me. He is nearly 5. His violence and demands have been consistent daily since he was around 2.5. We have tried everything. Calm, gentle, ignore, punish, shouting etc. He has just started school. He is absolutely fine there but is repeatedly hitting and spitting at me if he doesn't get to do what he wants after school such as get an ice cream or go to the park. He does this all the time at home too.

Tonight at bedtime because I was sat on the wrong part bed of the bed with his brother he decided to start kicking and hitting me and I had to restrain him. His older brother who is the most placid and gentle kid has to witness this distress all the time. When I talk to him after he says things such as I like hitting people, I hate you, I am never sorry to you. My soul is being destroyed by all this. I don't know how to connect with him as his default is aggression when with his brother it is so much more organic I am kind to him and he is thankful and kind in return. I feel like I am a good mum to both of them so why does one of them treat me this way. He also says things about being dead and kill a lot too.

Are these early signs of future mental illness? School and nursery have never raised anything ever about his behaviour but I feel like I'm failing and fear for the future. Not only for him but for myself. Supporting him but also when he is bigger and can overpower me. He is already large and strong for his age.

Anyone have a child similar and have things got better? The internet searches just say he is still young and it is still behaviour in normal range? Please help. AIBU?

We contacted health visitor when he was smaller. No one ever came back to us. We raised it at nursery they said they wouldn't asses or refer as he was progressing well or ahead in all areas

I have a child a very similar age, albeit a girl, but have also worked with many his age too in my job.
Doesn't sound normal to me (and my girl isn't a calm or easy kid!)
If the behaviours are only at home then either the explanation might be something at home, or it might be he is holding it together at school and letting it out at home.
The cause may be complex or may be more simple than you think.
Might he be Neurodiverse?
Could be resentful of his brother as the golden child who can do no wrong, and taking it out on you?
Do you have quality postive 1-1 time with him without his brother there?
Might he be hearing conversations with comparisons being made to him and brother?
Have you talked to him about his feelings to try and find out why he might be behaving so angrily?
Did anything traumatic or significant happen to him or you as a family around the time the behaviours started?

I know it's common for people to jump straight to autism with things like this but my now 9 year old was the same from around 2/3 years and he is autistic. He went to nursery obsessed with knives and killing and anything morbid. it was a special interest. he would lash out at any sensory thing that over whelmed or anything that challenged him that he felt he couldn't do like socks/zips/buttons. he is mellow now and doesn't hit me anymore..he did hit out at school until around year 2 and quickly learned if he hits someone they may hit back! (other children not me of course) he stil has his moments but it was just that he needed lost of reassurance and to know what's happening well in advance so he could get used to things and not have anything unpredictable. I really HTH.

She does not want him to be judged at school ( where he behaves well) for what he behaves like at home. A perfectly reasonable concern

Op, I'm.not sure I'd spend too much time asking the school for help. If he is fine in school they won't be able to do much.

Family or play therapy might help if you can afford it. A really good book that I found helpful when DS was young is called

Playful Parenting by Lawrence J Cohen

amzn.eu/d/0hIA3nNc

You really need to improve your relationship with your child and that is hard to do when their behaviour is very extreme. That book had loads of brilliant ideas.

How much screen time does he get and what’s he watching? I’d be saying to him, that if he spits at you that’s a dealbreaker and he automatically loses privileges for screens and any form of treat.

You then get a reward chart and until you see a few days in a row where he’s not behaved that way he doesn’t get those things back. Instead of being something he can lose, they’re something he has to earn.

I’d see how he gets on with that for a couple of weeks. If it doesn’t improve after that id definitely be seeking support.

He sounds to be like a very tired little boy who needs to know who is boss in your home.

Contact gp and discuss with them

Check out incredible years programme they have a book too

amzn.eu/d/09kmeEHo

I’d definitely look at doing a course such as Incredible Years or Triple P if you can. It would be good to have a clear set of strategies to deal with the behaviour as it sounds pretty full on for a 4 yo.

Sounds similar to my DS who has just been diagnosed with autism. He needs a completely different approach to his older sister who responds to traditional patenting. DS is in another league, but the autism diagnosis makes sense.

Sorry to hear you are going through this. I have also experienced similar with my son. He struggles with emotional/social interactions and we deferred him for a year so he started school at 5 and a half (we're in Scotland). He used to misbehave at nursery sometimes and hit other children, but we discovered that the staff there were shouting at him a lot, which made it so much worse. After a staff turnaround he got on so much better, and now at school there have been no issues with behaviour.

Things have improved a lot as he has gotten older but he still has his moments. My DS also mentions killing, but he says it out of frustration when he wants to say something to upset me. He has also hit me on a few occasions when he gets angry. We found that taking away TV time when he did any of these was enough to change his behaviour. We also discovered that usually it was because he was just wanting some connection with us, so we try to make sure we spend 1 on 1 time with him when we can, as he has a younger sibling.

We are still working through it, but as his communication and understanding of social/emotional regulation has developed, things have gotten slightly easier.

Please don't be hard on yourself. It's really tough!

I'm a primary school SENCO. Ask to have a chat. Unless you get a strange one, us SENCOs genuinely care, have heard it all before and really do want to support you.

Just came on here to add I too would find a local group for parents of SEND children, plus ask school for help. They may not have a clue what they are doing but they are the first step to unlocking other support for parents & children. It won’t just be your parenting. It’s very easy to blame parents or mums tho.

also if he is autistic he might benefit from specific sensory activities which you might need help to identify - some make no sense but make a huge impact. E.g. ds used to swing on his chair all the time - gym/physio band round the front legs of the chair - chair stays still

I hope you find some support

This is so reassuring. You don't know how much I needed to hear this. Thank you 💐

Oh this sounds very difficult and I really feel for you. I think it is important to set boundaries of what you will and won't accept. If your child can control themselves in other places and with other people and lash out at you alone, then you can't always jump to SEN. Even if there are SEN, you still need to have rules and be the parent, which is not always easy when you are tired and emotional.

You have been lucky with your older child who.has a calmer disposition but children are all different. Yes, you may be your child's 'safe space' but that doesn't mean you have to put up with any abuse and bad behavior.

If your child hits you or kicks you, walk away. Do not interact with him, do not beg or plead or reason. Leave him alone in a safe room to regulate. Do not let him see your hurt, when he is acting out, grey rock and remove yourself. When he has calmed down and tired himself out, go in an give him a cuddle and let him know he is loved. When he behaves well, praise him, when he behaves badly, walk away.

I have two autistic children and have experience of after school meltdowns, I also feel that some people see SEN as an excuse not to discipline their children, I've seen this quite a lot and it doesn't help anyone going forward. I'm not saying it is easy, but you have to put in the graft while they are young. Autistic children can learn from consistent rules, yes, it may take time and be exhausting for the parent but it can be done. I also want to say that your child has language and understanding so should be able to understand the consequences to their actions.

Ultimately, if the school don't see the issues, they will not necessarily act on your concerns. Be open with the teachers, speak to the SENCO but as the issues are at home right now, you need to be proactive there.

I hope things improve for you.

Make an appointment to speak to the SENDco at the school and take it from there.

He does have additional needs and things aren't going to get any better without some help for him and support for everyone in the house.

Talking from experience DS is 8 now and still incredibly difficult - the bruises on my arm are proof of this. Still taking things one day at a time. X

You really do need to pull your finger out here and insist on getting help. Start with your GP. All kids go through their own things but this has been sustained for two years and you really do need to advocate for him. He can't do it for himself. You cannot afford to just wait for someone else to care enough to do something.

He is masking at school which is very common with children with SEND. Please speak to your school SENCO, your GP and have a look at early help on your local authority website.

To help outside professionals understand his behaviour you may need to start keeping a log of incidents and video his behaviour towards you and at home. This will all help as evidence in any assessment/diagnosis you get. Make a note of any triggers (there may be none) so you can try and navigate these meltdowns.

What’s he like for your husband?

My DC behavior was somewhat similar although less physically violent but she was hitting past the age it was really appropriate and having a lot of verbal outbursts to age 7. She is not diagnosed with SEN (evaluated because live abroad where it is much easier to access services). For her it seems like the answers were:

• Really bad fit at a preschool ages 3-4 which meant she was constantly in fight or flight mode. So little things were set her off because she was at an 8 all the time.
• behavior at school improved overnight and at home significantly after moving schools to a less chaotic environment with a teacher with much better/clearer boundaries
• uncertsinty makes her very uncomfortable. She wants to know what the rules are and that the adults know what’s going on. Like all children, she feels safer with boundaries but I think to a greater extent than other kids.
• she wants independence so we are constantly working on what she can do herself
• she gets overstimulated and needs A LOT of alone time. We are a 0 screen time household and do a lot of audiobooks. She does not do well if we spend a long time in a busy environment so we are careful not to over schedule.
• consequences/punishment are not super effective and tend to escalate behavior. Stepping away and focusing on keeping everyone safe in the moment is priority 1 and focusing on how to not get so dysregulated is step 2. I would say that my DC is kind to a fault and incredibly remorseful after bad behavior and I probably wouldn’t be comfortable stepping away from consequences from a child who didn’t show remorse.
• she is off the charts gifted (live somewhere that this is assessed) and the way I have read about it is gifted people can kind of experience the world more intensely. Coupled with kids having understanding way beyond their age but no emotional ability to handle it. I don’t know if your DC falls into that bucket but reading a list of challenges for gifted kids explains a lot of my DC behavior.

id recommend reading about spirited kids - it talks a lot about putting them in situations they can succeed behaviorally in and working to expand that. Likewise 1,2,3 magic is good for consistent boundaries. Also recommend doing a parenting class with DC dad to make sure you’re on the same page.

I also gave myself grace that she IS harder to parent than other kids but also, kind of incredible because her depth of interests and conversation is just so different from kids her age.

Go to the GP if you don't want to involve school yet.

See if you have a local family hub, they can also advise and the gov is meant to be opening them all over the country.

I would not wait because this is already extreme and you'll be ending up in a viscious cycle where you are stressed expecting him to misbehave and get on him more, so he is stressed because he's in trouble causing him to misbehave more.

In general, children who are displaying challenging behaviour need more specific parenting rather than following general advice that you might find anywhere. It probably will need to be more structured than most people can get away with and you want to lead with the positive ie turn the behaviour expectation around to what you want to see more of, not less of, and also learn how to break this down into smaller steps if it is not achievable from where you are right now, set the child up for success, and learn to be aware of where you might inadvertantly be modelling the behaviour you don't want e.g. talking in an irritated tone when you are annoyed by something.

You can learn those skills from parenting courses which your GP can signpost you to and they are generally a good starting place. Some children will turn things around when you start using strategies like this, others you might find this kind of thing is a start, but ultimately they will need more support too such as understanding their sensory processing differences or communication differences, or getting them some support such as speech therapy.

This is also good and you can just follow it online: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyEGNxBvNdOVlianDYgWuc9

Firstly just wanted to send big hugs. This sounds incredibly tough. Secondly, this is nothing to do with your parenting. I’d highly recommend speaking to the Senco. I have 3 neurodivergent children and with my youngest you never would have guessed how he behaved at home if you saw him at school. One day he couldn’t mask anymore and had the most almighty meltdown at school and they couldn’t believe it was the same child. My advice is to start early. It’s not normal behaviour so the sooner you get help, the better the outcomes will be for him as he gets older. The support you need could take time so get the ball rolling now, I’d go
to both the Senco and GP as a starting point.

I'd talk to as many people as you can - SENCO, HV, GP etc. You and your son need all the support you can get. It can take a long time to identify the cause of issues like this and to find suitable interventions so you want to look at all options. Our neurodivergent son, now a young adult, wasn't violent but we have been unpicking his behaviour and trying different approaches for over 15 years. When your child does not meet usual expectations you typically end up parenting differently long term. Please don't try to do it all alone.

My daughter is also autistic and the being on the wrong part of the bed jumped out at me too. Also having a low frustration tolerance for things like not being able to do up a zipper or put on a sock.

But yeah, the rigidity around things like where other people can or can’t sit and trying to control other people’s behaviour was a big thing with her at that age.

The good news is OP, that he is still very young, so if you have him assessed, whatever it turns out to be, he will get support early on in his life that will set him up well for the future.

My 5yr old would be like this and please take everything I am about to say with the understanding I was a SEN teacher myself so already had access and info that not all parents have.

My son would be exactly the same I think without our strict and firm parenting and if I hadn’t pushed for special support at school. I’ve been working on emotional regulation with him from 1 yr old and he’s been in speech and OT from 18m old due to head banging. Definitely socks to school SENCO. It’s really common for SEN kids to hold it in all day and explode at their safe person (often Mum), but this does not make it ok and it’s something that needs improving, you do not and should not be expected to tolerate any abuse including hitting, spitting, screaming etc.

‘The out of sync child’ is a great book. Also researching demand avoidance parenting and ADHD parenting was so helpful for me.

If my child ever tries to blackmail me, kicks off about not getting something then he goes straight home and misses out. If he screams for too long I will lose my temper and tell him off strictly. You cannot reason with a child that isn’t calm but I know it’s the hardest thing in the world to regulate yourself when they are acting this way. I try and step away or take a few breaths but none of us are perfect.

I won’t tolerate being screamed or shouted at. And I’m firm on this. If he hit or spat on me repeatedly I’d lose my temper on him is the truth. We typically use timeout but if I was being repeatedly smacked around then I would be very harsh back.

It’s really hard OP. You’re not alone but things can and will get better.

Your DS sounds a lot like my DS who is 12 and diagnosed with ADHD and autism. The doctor said he has the characteristics of PDA as well, but they don't diagnose it separately.
He was only diagnosed a few months ago, but i flagged up his behaviours when he was 16 months. They said ND was likely, but they wanted to see how he developed. His twin was diagnosed with autism when he was 2 (it is genetic in our family).

His masking at school made it harder as well. With me, his safe person, his behaviour is ridiculous. But everyone else gets the "Sunday best" version of him. Of course he can't sustain the mask for long, so he would let it all out when he got home (coke bottle effect).

It's clear now why none of the "punishments" we tried, or the advice we implemented never worked. We were told to praise good behaviour and use reward charts. Bad idea. The praise puts too much pressure on him and he can't maintain it. Reward charts were pointless because his executive dysfunction always prevailed, and set him up to fail.

I don't take away all electronics as a punishment. He needs something to help him self regulate. I'm ND as well, and I use my phone for self regulation. If it were taken away from me, I'd struggle so much it would be unbearable.

It's impossible to impose a routine as, while the autistic brain needs it, the ADHD brain can't stand it rebels. It feels like nothing you do helps because the brain is so conflicted.

Punishments and consequences usually lead to an escalation of behaviour. So you add a punishment, which leads to more escalation. Eventually you take away everything, so he has nothing more to lose and he'll take it up a notch.

I really think you need to speak to the SENCO.

You need him assessed - you need help to handle him. You are doing great but it won't be easier as they grow.