What do we REALLY think about the weight loss jabs?

[Newbabynewhouse]

I've put this on AIBU rather than weight loss jab because I want a neutral audience rather than people who are all using the jab.
What are peoples thoughts on the jab? I'd love to hear from someone educated in the medical field about whether these are actually safe for people without diabetes.
I'm obese and I have lost a stone so far by dieting although it's taking me a long time! I know if I keep trying hard I can lose what I need to. Lots of people I know have started dropping weight from using the jabs and I am tempted however, can't shake a feeling that there's something not quite right.
What I mean by this is... these jabs have been around for years for diabetic people, so why have they only just been 'released' to people despite obesity effecting the NHS for years?
I know a woman who fainted in work the other day with gallbladder issues, she's on the jab.
Also, I'm going to sound a little conspiracy theorist now, but, isn't it odd these jabs became popular straight after people starting refusing to have more covid jabs..?.. I'd love to hear from people with a bit of background info or medical professionals to tell me whether I'm overthinking or if I'm onto something?

@LifeOnEnceladus the thing is, the MHRA in the UK and the other regulatory bodies in other countries have approved these medications for people with BMI 30, or 27+ with a weight related health condition or an ethnicity related BMI adjustment. That process looks at the benefit versus risk for different groups to decide on whether it should be approved and for what groups of people. The MHRA will continue to monitor the incidence of side effects and may change their position should real world use show a different pattern of side effects to those in the clinical trials.

Therefore, people on threads here discussing side effects should be doing so with the understanding that for those groups of people the benefit does outweigh the risks.

Personally, I think the real world usage by millions of people and the very very small rate of serious side effects shows that these drugs are at least as safe as the trial data showed, if not more so.

Of course there’s always a risk benefit analysis, and for people who are obese the benefit will usually outweigh the risks. But some pp are angrily denying that there is a risk. And the real world that we all live in shows us that many people are obtaining private prescriptions at BMI 27 with no weight related health condition. These are facts that we can all see so denying them seems self serving and meaningless.

Oh for goodness sake. This is precisely the kind of unscientific nonsense I’m referring to: “2000 people per year die from taking neurofen”.

What were their underlying health conditions? How did that cause the adverse side effects of neurofen in these specific patients? How sick were they and with what? Was it a contributing factor or did some totally healthy person with a minor injury taking it for pain relief just happen to have an allergic reaction to it? Or are we talking about people already seriously/ terminally ill/ with contrad-indicated conditions/ young babies who nobody knew were allergic to it etc etc?!

How many people in total take neurofen per year so that a proper statistical analysis of relative risk can be assessed? How do you possibly think the absolute number of deaths is relevant without comparing this to the total number taking weight loss drugs? And then you obviously cannot assess relative risk from the total number even if it was in proportion to the number taking the drug without also excluding confounding factors, age, sex, underlying medical conditions, weight, duration and quantity of dose etc., i.e. considering the profile of those taking the medication and why, alongside also obviously the total numbers doing so compared to the percentage with serious side effects in each of the stratified groups, in order to present the relative risk of different side effects for different patients with different existing risk profiles.

This is basic statistics and this is just one example of the inane and silly comments to which I have been referring with people misrepresenting things. We all know that all drugs have side effects. The point is that people with different risk profiles are now being prescribed these particular drugs on a huge scale which means data should be collected to enable an accurate and stratified assessment of risk and where the risk/ benefit balance tips based on the various factors listed above. It’s impossible to have a rational discussion either people who post this kind of irrelevant “statistic” that “2000 people per year die from taking neurofen” thinking it shows us anything useful as a comparison to the drugs being discussed. It doesn’t.

Far fewer people in the UK die from shark attacks per year in the UK (zero on average) than from car accidents (629), motorcycling accidents (386), cycling (79), drowning (250-300). Does this mean we should put sharks in all of our swimming pools, lakes and rivers because they are obviously safe and ban cars, motorbikes, bikes and swimming? No. Such a conclusion would represent either a fundamental lack of grasp of statistics or deliberate misrepresentation. I have no idea which of those is behind many of the silly posts in this thread, but it has to be one or the other or a combination of both.

Of course that analysis has been done for people in those specific groups. However, with the numbers now taking these drugs it is possible to collect large scale data about interactions with various other health conditions, age, dosage, duration of dosage etc to get a clearer indication of prevalence of side effects in each group and we should be doing this every time someone presents to the NHS with side effects. This isn’t possible in much smaller clinical trials, hence new data and observations already emerging in medical journals about more patient-profile specific risks. And as discussed earlier in the thread there are unfortunately people taking them for whom they are NOT approved because of lax private prescription processes which do not require independent evidence. This has highlighted a general flaw in the private prescription process for online pharmacies for all medications and I hope will lead to safer procedures requiring the patient to download their medical record summary from the NHS app and submit it with the prescription request (or grant an electronic permission for the pharmacist to access their medical record) to verify the information provided so that the process is safer and people outside the tested range for safe prescription can’t circumvent the safety protocols.

Thanks. I didn’t even bother to check this “statistic” because it was irrelevant but that makes the post even more absurd it it’s not even correct.

This thread is clearly a waste of time for anybody seeking a rational discussion/ facts.

@Allisnotlost1 you don't need a health condition at BMI 27 for specific ethnicities. Then, these medications can be prescribed off licence to people with BMI 25 or higher. For the pharmacies that do that there are usually tighter video consult rules and they won't automatically prescribe. They also make it clear to the individual what the risks are and that there is limited or no evidence of benefits to people in the only slightly overweight category.

People obtaining medication fraudulently or obtaining fake black market drugs from illegal sellers is a different issue. There is no need to discuss benefits versus risks in those scenarios, as the risks are obviously higher and no one sensible would argue that it's a reasonable course of action.

@LifeOnEnceladus it’s very clear you’re anti the drugs and don’t wish a balanced argument, you also appear angry, which is very odd. With the stereotypical we just want a discussion, yes a discussion thay only focuses on the negatives,

its your brothers, if there is even a brother, choice if he takes these prescription medications for the purpose he is prescribed them.

fortunately for me my family was fully supportive and knowledgeable,

It’s an old statistic from a study in 2000 on adverse effects from all NSAIDs. The number is lower now and is about 0.027% of users. To be fair the rate of GLP1 deaths is lower, around 0.013%, but the adverse event rate is higher, though generally less severe. However, the risks for NSAIDs are generally well known and established over time. Less so for GLPs and we can see now expansion of the user group beyond what was clinically tested, an increase in overdoses and an increase in long term use, the effect of which is obviously not yet known. On balance probably still better than staying obese, but I’d still rather we tried to stop people getting obese!

An absolute miracle.

trying to eat healthy before always resulted in debilitating migraines. I used food plus medication as a way to control the headaches. The strong migraine meds alone were not enough.

with the jabs, I can eat like a normal person, take my migraine meds, the headaches are stable and I’m losing weight.

I don’t have diabetes, but I 100% believe that these shots are treating something wrong in my body. The change in my migraines is dramatic.

How did she get it if she only wanted to lose a few kilos. I had to jump through hoops to prove I was clinically obese.It must have been a black market one.
Or she lied and sent someone else's photo in because you don't need a face on it.
If you do either of those things you will probably die.

@LifeOnEnceladus the 2000 claim in relation to Nurofen is inaccurate, as you say. There is widespread reporting of anywhere between 700 to 2000 additional deaths a year due to NSAIDs or aspirin in general. That's mainly from stomach ulcer bleeding. Hence the advice not to take these long term without seeking advice from a doctor.

If you forgive the inaccuracy, which you may not of course, the general point being made is that there are specific risks associated with an OTC medication which annually causes a not insignificant number of deaths. Yet people don't start threads or comment on threads where people talk about managing pain, in the way that people post about pancreatitis or gallbladder issues on threads about WLI. And that's for an OTC medication with very limited checks on who can buy them, to treat pain. Compared to a medication that's already a prescription med with specific criteria that effectively treats a serious health issue. It's a comment about double standards or people having an overreaction to the idea of medication for obesity which they don't have about other medications.

I know - I should have been clearer ‘we all know people at BMI 27 without a weight related condition or ethnicity adjustment’.

Ive no doubt private pharmacies have policies on clarity on side effects and risks etc. But as has been discussed and we all know from our own life experience, patients don’t always follow the rules and neither do pharmacies. People can make their own choices, I just don’t agree with the pretence from some in this discussion that this has become, for a great many people, a lifestyle and not a health drug.

Thank you. That is a very helpful and actually statistically valid contextualisation.

It seems clear that overall these drugs are a huge medical breakthrough and very effective for many, many people, and as you say for those in the tested categories the risks overall are small compared to the benefits across the population. It’s the widespread adoption beyond these tested usages and long-term duration of dosing that seem to be untested and while one hopes that the benefits would still outweigh the risks the assertions people have made that this is the case don’t yet seem to be supported by any evidence. I hope that we will collect that evidence so that more people can benefit from it, safely.

As for the poster who made disgusting comments saying all I care about it calling my brother greedy (I did not) because I expressed concern about his weight gain which he himself states is due to eating portions that are much too large, it is exactly these kinds of unnecessary and spiteful comments which have made this thread so unpleasant. It seems to be an almost cult-like hatred of anybody who dares to question safety and is looking for factual data like that provided by @Allisnotlost1, even when like me they have expressed kindness when responding to other posters personal stories about their specific struggles.

Not sure how much the eating is relevant, GLP1s have been found to improve migraine https://www.verywellhealth.com/glp-1-drugs-migraine-11969393

@Gettingbysomehow the way this case was referred to makes it seem like this unfortunate Australian woman was trying to drop a few pounds. In reality, she had lost 16kg or 2st 7lbs, so she was not just a little overweight. She was likely obese when she started taking Ozempic before swapping to Saxenda.

She also had gastric symptoms and went to her doctor about it "a few times" yet continued taking it because she wanted to lose further weight. The implication from her husband's comments is that she was advised to stop but didn't. Furthermore, the GLP1 medications weren't listed on her death certificate as a cause.

It's a very sad case, but as an individual situation it doesn't tell us anything meaningful about the risks of GLP1s.

Oh yes they do.

Have you not seen many of the appalling threads on this website about chronic pain conditions like CFS/ME and fibromyalgia etc? People writing posts saying that these a “fake” conditions and that people suffering from them are inventing it. I suppose at least nobody can dispute that an obese person is obese so they don’t have to endure that.

Have you not seen the appalling comments made about conditions like ME and autism, even pretending that they are invented or overdiagnosed or “just part of personality”? “We’re all on the spectrum” and other laughable nonsense?

Obesity is by no means the only health condition about which people make uninformed comments. What is egregious, however, is when people who are not making false assertions and are actually looking for information are insulted for doing so as I have seen happen to numerous posters on this thread.

@LifeOnEnceladus I think if someone started a thread called "what do we REALLY think about autism" or even CFS/ME that MNHQ would probably delete it once reported, even though they are usually terrible at removing ableist posts.

But those are conditions, not specific medications that are legal, approved and already subject to prescribing criteria which is what I was referring to. I repeat my belief that people don't post about other medications in the same way as they do about GLP1s.

Your post epitomises what I’ve been saying.

If you had read my posts you’d see I am very much not “anti the drugs”. I’ve repeatedly stated that in many cases it’s clear they have a hugely beneficial effect. That doesn’t mean that it’s not legitimate to also have concerns about significant side effects which, while rare, are well documented and the prevalence of which in various different groups of patients is not yet fully analysed.

I love my brother a lot, and have always been extremely supportive of him in ways that you probably couldn’t comprehend given we grew up with abusive parents and as his older sibling I protected him. I suspect our childhood is the root of his issues with food. So yes, I am worried about how he deals with this because I think a lot of the problem is psychological in his case. Just like my other older sibling turned to alcohol.

People aren’t going to become “knowledgeable” about a topic which they’ve previously had no reason to learn about through you and other posters insulting them when you know nothing at all about those to whom you are directing this nastiness.

I’m not angry at all, thank you. It appears from many of your posts here that you may be projecting. I am simply disappointed at the level of discourse and constant hurling of personal insults at anybody who asks questions. Certain particular posters on this thread have repeatedly insulted other posters on the thread who have put forward opinions (which is what the OP asked for) that they do not like or asked legitimate questions. It’s interesting that all of this spitefulness seems to have come from one side of the debate.

I am on no side of it, I was simply interested in the discussion for the reasons I’ve explained - concern for the family member that, allegedly, I don’t give a damn about.

I’m done. There are too many toxic people on the thread for it to be worth continuing to engage.

That’s not equivalent. The thread wasn’t called “what do we REALLY think about obesity?”. It is about a treatment for the health condition. Not the health condition itself.

And regardless, plenty of people seem to feel perfectly entitled to give their opinions about what they REALLY think about autism all over this site, despite knowing nothing about it and not having been asked.

As much as I don’t disagree with many of your recent comments explaining what’s being said, I think lifestyle and health overlap, they can be one and the same,

i Will use myself as an example, I am on a low dose to maintain my weight, it could be argued this is lifestyle, as I do not wish to spend my days feeling hungry, deprived, focused on food, guilty if I eat, worried about fitting into my clothes. I want to simply eat healthy, not focus on it.

my mental health is also important. It is not just physical health. Why should I live like that if I don’t need to. I’ve done decades of it, it’s miserable, I don’t wish to be miserable. I want to enjoy my life. And not have my weight and food as an overwhelming all consuming cross to bear.

but it’s also for health, I cannot regain for health reasons, I will become unwell again, my body cannot cope with excess weight.

so my choice is stark, struggle every day to not regain, go to bed hungry, feeling deprived, struggling mentally, risking ill health. Or live happy and healthy and take a low dose of the medication.

i pick the latter, in line with the health authorities recommendations and my gps recommendation.

is it lifestyle or is it health, it’s both. And of all the people I know on it, it’s the same. No one takes the drugs for fun. They cost a lot of money, every single person taking them now leads a healthy lifestyle, and studies show that the drugs are more successful in real life than trials. And it’s felt that in part the fact peiple need to pay and pay handsomely to take them underlines the seriousness they take their health,

this isn’t take them and eat what you please. This isn’t gorge on fatty foods and have an injection and the fat melts off. That’s not how they work.

I have posted info about the actual scientific research I did. It is summarised in a podcast on radio 4 called The Hunger Game with Giles Yeo. He is really a top scientist in obesity and supports the use of WLI, not for any personal gain but for the science. I recommend his podcast. Each episode is only about 15 mins long.

He talks about the food noise and lack of satiety some people have being due to hormones and that's why the GLP1/GIP meds are so impactful. It's not an even playing field when it comes to people just eating less and moving more.

@LifeOnEnceladus Yes, I agree with you, I am talking about the treatment of a health condition. As I said, people don't talk or post about other treatments in the way they do about GLP1s or with the frequency.

Thank you, I had missed your earlier post. I’ll take a look at that and it may be useful for my “imaginary” brother as well. Really helpful info - thanks.

The top and bottom of that is that many people don’t believe it is a health condition, hence the debate.

Anyone who isn’t obese and never has been, or doesn’t find it hard to lose weight, would assume that eating enough to be obese isn’t compulsory and if you want to lose weight, just stop it.

My only “gripes” with them are:

I don’t believe they should be used if your initial start point wasn’t obesity. You shouldn’t treat an illness you don’t have. I don’t take chemo, I don’t have cancer. I don’t take blood pressure tablets either - etc etc.

I also don’t appreciate as a fat person, being offered them so regularly, or have people who do use them give me their selling points what feels like every 5mins when I’ve made clear that I don’t want to. There’s one woman I know on them who every time I see her goes on about how my loss would be easier, they’re the best ever, it would speed it up, blah blah blah. On, and on.

I appreciate that’s not necessarily a MN issue, but it’s definitely irritating. There’s far less “you don’t have to take them” when they’re being rammed down your throat every day by reformed fat people.

@Stormyrose I can relate to what you said:

…I am on a low dose to maintain my weight, it could be argued this is lifestyle, as I do not wish to spend my days feeling hungry, deprived, focused on food, guilty if I eat, worried about fitting into my clothes. I want to simply eat healthy, not focus on it.
my mental health is also important. It is not just physical health. Why should I live like that if I don’t need to. I’ve done decades of it, it’s miserable, I don’t wish to be miserable. I want to enjoy my life. And not have my weight and food as an overwhelming all consuming cross to bear.

After being on WLIs for just 3 weeks I have realised that my MH has improved.

I’m not in a constant cycle of trying not to give in to the food noise, hating myself when I do and then getting in a doom loop of overeating because I feel bad about myself but getting comfort from eating nice things.