If you were previously on the fence about Lucy Letby’s guilt, have the Thirlwall findings swayed you either way?

[KwellsBells]

I personally have always thought she is guilty, and even more so since the report findings were published.

YABU - still on the fence/ still believe she is innocent

YANBU - she’s guilty

I’m still on the fence really, especially having worked on nhs wards for years. I haven’t read it in full though but my initial instinct when I saw it on the news was that the fact that the care was so bad in general, stating some babies could have been saved made me think that all the care was generally sub standard throughout the unit, so more evidence in favour of there being no real evidence that LL did anything. I’m really not convinced by the Expert witness etc too… so I still believe that what was most likely is that she was young and probably on shift a lot and the circumstantial elements can’t be ignored… I’ve also brought home paper, etc accidentally and when I was younger might have looked at Facebook ??! I think many nhs staff are horrified that all of that evidence was cobbled together and made to fit a narrative

They weren't allowed to go against the verdict so it makes no odds to me. If anything it's made it seem more likely she didn't do it.

I’ve also seen A LOT of ar$e covering - NHS is full of it, younger staff scapegoated , it’s very prevalent, the culture within the nhs is highly toxic and hierarchical, doctors are treated differently to other staff and sadly a lot of weak and also arrogant managers too -so it feels so unlikely that it’s as clear cut as it says I’m afraid

The inquiry should have been delayed pending the outcome of the CCRC decision and potential return of LL's case to court. Each risks undermining the other- how do you implement inquiry recommendations when the whole basis of events is still open to question? And how does the CCRC proceed given that public money and time have been spent on an inquiry that takes the question they are considering as already answered. A complete mess.

She's innocent and its a miracle she hasnt taken her own life. How awful. People are vile, always.

Such a ridiculous waste of money. It should have been delayed.
18 million pounds could have been so much better spent to improve outcomes for vulnerable babies.
Still, the inquiry did throw up quite a number of bits and pieces that will help with her eventual appeal, so there’s that.

I have always thought she's guilty. I am open to any CCRC output and will keep an open mind should there be any new, compelling evidence.

The two experts jumping ship seems to be an omen of more defence experts gradually backing out though.

Well if anything it shows even more clearly what a shit show that neonatal unit was, probably down to poor leadership throughout the Trust, lack of resources, poor relationships between staff and low morale. Same old NHS. I have never found the evidence against Lucy Letby particularly compelling, this inquiry has not changed my mind at all.

This really. I still believe she's innocent. I believe the deaths were down to a poor maternity unit sending sick babies to a poor neonatal unit. I think it sounds like a perfect storm for deaths caused by mismanagement, a poor environment, toxic culture between doctors and nursing staff, sloppy practice and arse covering. I think she's a scapegoat.

I don't think you will find many people that were "on the fence" either before or after this inquiry.

I am not a supporter of Letby and do not feel I know whether she is guilty or not guilty.

But I am a supporter of justice. I believe their is enough evidence/additional information/doubt for a retrial to be necessary and Thirlwall hasn't changed that view for me.

I do believe that Thirlwall has important things to say about how the NHS operates and this particular case, regardless of whether Letby is actually guilty or not guilty, or is acquitted in the future.

Whether it represents the best and most conclusive way of getting at the facts of the case/whether this objective would have been better served by waiting until a retrial takes place, I am not sure on.

I suppose to believe it should have been delayed, you have to ask the question whether or not if there was a retrial and Letby was found not guilty whether the inquiry would have come to substantially different conclusions or found different things. I am not sure on this currently.

It’s made no difference to me , I don’t think it was a safe conviction .

I dont believe Lucy is guilty. I have been reading articles on it.
Nobody ever saw Lucy harm any babies.
The hospital was run down, dirty, bad plumbing and reports have stated that the hospitals facilities were inadequate for treating tiny, very prem babies.
Staff rotas all over the place, long shifts, lack of staff and Lucy apparently wasnt even on shift when some babies collapsed.
Yes, this is our world renowned NHS 😡😡

Sadly this. I don’t know if she’s guilty or not, but I do think there is enough ‘reasonable doubt’ of her guilt to merit an appeal.

I heard an interview yesterday by Evan Dewy ( spelling?)

he was talking about the amount of deaths spiking and that’s why they were alerted to something being wrong

as I understood it

it was usually 2/3 deaths a tear
the one year was 13 death

7 down to LL

then he spoke about the sewage flooding in and that was obviously a risk

so I’m still unsure on his logic as it still didn’t make sense to me

I think that the trial was shaky. I also think that the NHS needs significant reform. But that doesn’t mean I’m confident of her innocence.

I’ve never had an inkling that she was guilty or otherwise so I suppose I’m a fence sitter.

I still am a fence sitter following the enquiry. I just don’t know if she did it. But I’m certain that the chaotic NHS can’t continue as it is.

Still on the fence, and not entirely sure she's guilty.

Agree with a lot that this poster says....

@Dollymylove · Today 15:43

I dont believe Lucy is guilty. I have been reading articles on it.
Nobody ever saw Lucy harm any babies.
The hospital was run down, dirty, bad plumbing and reports have stated that the hospitals facilities were inadequate for treating tiny, very prem babies.

Staff rotas all over the place, long shifts, lack of staff and Lucy apparently wasnt even on shift when some babies collapsed.

Yes, this is our world renowned NHS 😡😡

It makes no difference to me. I have no opinion on her guilt or innocence.

I do think the initial trial was unsafe based on information that has since emerged and I do hope the CCRC sends the case back to the courts.

It was my understanding that haven’t exactly jumped ship - they still think she’s innocent. They just don’t agree with the fact that the defence is running with two opposing theories re the insulin. Essentially, there are two sets of experts who both think she’s innocent but for different reasons. Set 1 has withdrawn in protest of the fact that having two opposing theories risks undermining Letby’s appeal.

is that right? Would be happy to be corrected. I’m basing this off what was reported on BBC news

With regards to your question OP, I actually have no opinion on whether she’s guilty or innocent. I don’t see how we will ever know at this point. I do think it’s a very shoddy conviction, however, and I’m uncomfortable with it.

I don’t know whether she’s guilty or not. If pressed I’d lean more towards guilty.
However I believe the conviction is unsafe.

Yes. They haven’t jumped ship because they think she’s guilty after all, they just don’t think Mark Macdonald’s approach is the best way to free her.
They still strongly believe the evidence does not point to murder.
It’s hardly surprising that with so many people having concerns about the conviction and such a complex case, her supporters won’t all agree about everything.

Don’t forget that she had worked in other hospitals where staff had serious misgivings about the ‘care’ she provided……..

I believe she’s been scapegoated for the deaths, caused by a poor neonatal unit.

I find it strange that there been several investigations into maternity units, such as Nottingham, etc. Some of those babies’ deaths must be down to neglect by clearly identifiable HCPs, involved in the care of the mother and baby, but I cannot recall one individual being named in the press, never mind being charged with neglect, manslaughter or murder? Why haven’t the CEOs of those hospitals been charged, when imo, the buck stops at the top?

The Thirwell inquiry was based on the premise of (paraphrased) 'Given that the babies were murdered by Lucy Letby, what could have been done to stop her sooner?'. Those who think she is innocent, or at least think the conviction is unsafe, assert that it isn't a given that the babies were murdered at all. So the Thirwell inquiry doesn't give any sway in that respect.

If Lucy Letby was guilty and the prosecuting team were confident of her guilt, they wouldn't have had to manipulate the evidence, would they?