To think we can't afford the triple lock

[paddleboardingmum]

Things seem very weighted against young people right now in terms of tax, student loans, and then there's the cost of mortgages and childcare. I know there are some older people struggling and I do feel sorry for them. But plenty are not and I think we just can't afford the triple lock at the moment. AIBU

Back when state pension was introduced, most people wouldn't have lived to be old enough to get it. - People died in working years or retired and died shortly after. Over the decades, life expectancy has increased yet pension age hasn't increased in line, in fact, lots of people take early retirement, so aren't paying in as many years' worth of NIC as people used to do. Something has to change as it will drag the country down. As said upthread, logical thing is to means test it at a fairly high level, i.e. a level well over average income.

Germany isn't that bad compared to France.

Sure their growth rate like ours is not great. But their debt to GDP is pretty low.

France is at 120%. A country that riots every time the country tries to reform the welfare state and has significantly poorer GDP growth rates than comparable countries in the EU and the UK.

@Meadowfinch

its ok to change terms but you can’t for this over 50 because we have planned savings, pensions, life choices around the existing rules. I’ve put in my notice having worked 35 years, changing the goal posts is unfair (I’ve already had my state pension age changed from 60 to 67 and likely 68!)

I explain why the triple lock matters.
And there will certainly be people who would indeed get rid of the state pension. And get rid of the triple lock, it then becomes a conversation about who gets it at all. So yes, people will be thinking about getting rid of it.
Reform for example look to Australia. They assess how many assets you have. If you have a certain amount, no pension. Not that they shout much about this idea. Nor explain what they mean by how much in assets.

Plus the jobs and GDP gain in actually training people locally to do the jobs.

Yes Germany has been good re debt. That will help them. The issue is more pronounced for countries that keep piling it up, including here.

So loads of people on the triple lock then.

The reality is that we can't afford the triple lock or the current benefits bill together, both need significant cuts.

Triple lock needs to go, pensions linked to increases in salaries, so if salaries don't rise, neither does the pension or other benefits, everyone had to tighten their belts equally in difficult economic times.

Overall of PIP and DLA so definition of disability goes back to what it was 30 years ago. End motability for anything other than significant physical mobility.

Child benefits cap at 2 to be reinstated.

Housing benefit reforms, no one should he able to choose to live in expensive parts of the country.

Tax credits threshold changed. 26 hours a week shouldn't become the default definition of employment.

Unemployment benefit reduced if not actively seeking work or taking up advertised jobs.

69% of pensioners have a private/occupational pension. Private pensions were launched in the mid 1980s. Even before then, bigger employers usually had their own occupational pension schemes. Public sector have generally had occupational pension schemes for many decades. The 2018 changes were basically aimed at smaller employers who previously didn't have occupational pension schemes, so more of a "round up" to help those working in small firms (although they could have made their own private pension contributions since the 1980s!). Workplace pensions (2018) also brought in auto-enrolment to try to encourage those who had previously decided not to join their workplace pension scheme to do so- again a "round up" to try to encourage more people to make provision via schemes that had been available to them for years.

It's private/occupational pension schemes that have facilitated so many people to retire early. Hundreds of thousands take early retirement funded by occupational/private pension schemes every year.

If you means test it the threshold for doing so will reduce dramatically quickly. It really would ! Perhaps to a level that might affect you.

The principle matters. That we provide for older people in later life. We find the money for sudden things like clothing during Covid. We can find the money for older people.

I hate all this ‘take it away’. No. Find a way to make it work.

In think really we should be focused on brining costs down, that would be so much better for pensioners if their pension stretched further. Everytime we increase pensions we increase government borrowing and interest payments and have to increase taxes so the cost of everything goes up. Bit pointless really.

And if they do, good. It means they are not taking up jobs younger people could/should be doing.
And it also means they have worked for any pension they have. It is not something ‘given’ to them. It is not some sort of freebie.

OK, then increase income tax and scrap NIC, student loan repaymetns etc, so that pensioners at least pay the same tax on the same incomes as workers.

Or increase income tax rates on "unearned" income such as benefits.

More than one way to skin a cat.

Yes, but they should be paying NIC on their pensions, so they're still contributing towards their state pensions. Or we need to scrap NIC and increase income tax rates instead. It's insane that a retired person pays less tax on the same income as a worker, even moreso when the retired person has taken early retirement.

The triple lock is what is protecting those young people’s future pensions. The continued increases will be more beneficial for them in 30-40 years than any pensioner now. I don’t understand why they are not fighting to protect their state pensions, especially when private pension returns are lower than previous generations had.

I do agree with looking into state pension being means tested, but it is a difficult one to manage when pensioners have savings, or several pension funds being drawdown at different times etc.

I agree for students there needs to be a new funding model. Someone somewhere with a brain should be able to introduce a policy that works. The current system is a scandal.
Many people with occupational pensions will pay tax actually. And state pensioners may do so only if they have earned a full pension .
They will of course, paid tax and NI most of their lives. And many will have done their work. For decades. And paid in for decades. They were not born pensioners. And have paid tax all their lives.

There is a lot to look at with taxes etc. But I do believe in trying to create a system that does not lash out at any one group, that tries to find a path that works for all. Young and old.

So, punish the disabled and poor then?! Fuck them, eh?!

🤦🏼‍♀️

Pensions are a benefit. There is no correlation between what you paid in and what you get out. If you get the pension, it lasts as long as you live and no more. Some people never get their pension and others get it for far longer than their contributions would last for.

We aren't really piling up debt.

Debt was about 80-85% of GDP before Covid, then jumped to 95% after and has remained constant. The Covid jump was pretty much a gimmie in market terms because a lot of countries did similar.

We can't pile up debt now because the markets won't let us.

I notice the French 10 year price has now gone past the Italian one. Interesting times. I think France is on a doom trajectory.

Eu debt has a lower cost than UK debt. I wonder sometimes though how long the market will keep the faith that the core can support it all.

No, there is highly unlikely to be an automatic state pension for today's youngsters. It's why we've had the push for compulsory workplace pension schemes where both employer and employee pay in. It's just yet another "tax on workers". Once the critical mass of people have workplace pensions, there'll be no "need" for the state pension, and those without a workplace pension will claim pension credit instead, i.e. means tested.

But it’s ok to pensioners bash eh .

No they wont. It's £125471. Tax threshold is £12570.

I expect you are not retired.
If so, when you do retire you will be pleased for every penny you get.
State pension is, I believe half the living wage so could you live on approx. £12500 per annum.

Pension payments are the largest part of the benefits bill!

Why do we always have to listen to the phrase "pensioner bashing" when anyone queries the affordability and fairness of the rate of increase of the state pension?