AIBU to wonder whether ADHD is normal and society is the issue

[LadyBeatriceBeaHiggins]

No offence intended

Discussing about Adhd with a friend who has Adhd and we wondered what if Adhd is naturally a part of being human and its the way society trys to make humans into machines that is the problem ?

so figured id open up our debate for fellow mumsnetters

Not sure why my post repeated itself like that! Can't edit now.

@LittleFootprintsInSand I completely hear that parents will feel individualised guilt and that the discussion here has moved towards that. But the premise of the thread was that society ie the structures that we live within are the "issue" rather than how groups of individuals adapt to their environment. My opinion would be that society as a whole would benefit from prioritising whole foods, alignment with the natural environment and relationship with each other. I don't think it should be the battle it often is to do that and that we have created structures that are not conjucive to human or planetary thriving. And my personal experience has led me to feel quite strongly against medicating individuals to be able to fit into a sick system.

I found that quote interesting because it seemed to contain a contradiction.

@AudHvamm agree with a lot of that, although I do believe there will likely always be a group of individuals for whom medication is fairly necessary, e.g. large proportions of the prison population, or people whose impulses cause serious harm to themselves and others or where a person's ADHD causes/exacerbates serious addictions.

I don’t know why all prisoners are not checked for autism and adhd. Medication could reduce /stop their drug and alcohol use. Whilst in prison is the time to get them on medication and healthier -there’s a risk of drugs being sold on in the real world

I don't know as much about prisons, although have done connected work. I'm pretty sure a lot of prisons do now do screening for all new prisoners. I would imagine the problems come with capacity with formal assessments following 'positive' screens so that medication can be accessed. This is where such a good idea has just too much red tape to flourish, which is a massive shame.

I agree that ADHD is only a problem where people are not able to live lives that suit it. I think some people with ADHD might have suited a nomadic lifestyle, where you follow the crops/herds throughout seasons and just camp up wherever they are and hunt for what you need when you need it. Planning ahead like settled farmers have to do is more difficult for someone with ADHD. My dh is undiagnosed but I know that he has ADHD and I can see that he would have suited a nomadic hunter/gatherer lifestyle, whereas I am more of the settled subsistence farmer type (I can think ahead to save seeds and can fruit, store potatoes for the winter etc!).

Sadly life in the UK allows only the one path of living in a brick house....

@LittleFootprintsInSand that's an interesting thought about medicating against destruction of self/others and I suppose there is always a need to have organising structures so we can rub along and for some people even more human-centred structures would conflict too much with neurodivergance.

Although a healthy society like a healthy ecosystem is diverse and specialised at the same time - if the two roles @Cloverroll outlines in relation to food & agriculture could coexist that would be far more adaptive in a rapidly changing climate for example.

Interested if anyone has seen this programme. I can't watch it at the moment but might seek on catch up if it's worth it.

Good episode on the programme here.

Very much worth a listen. Critical of the neurodiversity movement - which I am too.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/lets-talk-neurosense-the-psychology-of-neurodiversity/id1883007944?i=1000784491793

I generally really like Dr Naomi Fisher but I do think she's not as open minded and objective about the neurodiversity movement as she insinuates. She sometimes makes sweeping statements about the 'science' and engages less with the fact that that the ND paradigm is mostly a socio-political concept rather than science. 'Science' isn't this great, completely infallible framework of solely objective fact, and it doesn't trump everything. Just an example, most forms of epilepsy don't show up on MRI scans but somehow the fact that you can't identify an autistic or ADHD brain is used as proof that the science doesn't support a brain based reality to neurodivergence. People who make statements like that don't even add the word "yet" to the end, which would be more accurate.

In some of the previous episodes, I also found her podcast co-host can be a little aggressive to guests who support ND movement under the guise of rigour, whereas her treatment of people she appears to agree with can be quite different. When they have guests they clearly agree with on the podcast, sometimes Dr Fisher tries to add some kind of 'balance' by offering up a different view, but in my opinion it's always said with a sort of eyeroll like "well I suppose some people might say...", rather than genuine curiosity about all angles.

I feel like a traitor saying this though because I think a lot of Dr Fisher's work, books and ideas are great.

Because as humans we are a social species and generally social norms and mores are a general thing so some people will present as odd. I was saying the same unfortunately recently about someone, a person asked me what I thought about X, she struggles with X, cant connect with them. Unfortunately both of us find X irritating, awkward, odd, bizarre. Not their fault. Not our fault, but we dont really want to be around them. Social skills are important to be learnt and tweaked, we all have to do that.

Its yet another thing,, like the object permanence example, that has become a 'fact' and applicable to everyone with ND. If everyone single person was tested and the ND traits corresponde with lack of dopamine, fine, but thats not happening, there isnt a 'test' for it and thats the problem.

I believe there is a huge difference in conditions for people like your children and someone like Ben Sheperd or Paddy Considine both who are apparently ASD. They shouldnt be called the same thing at all.

Is there less dopamine available to the brain?

Dopamine dysregulation is often suggested to be the most fundamental element of ADHD. You don't necessarily have less but your brain doesn't use it like a neurotypical brain would. Perhaps a bit like how somebody suffering testosterone deficiency might have a normal level of total testosterone but still be deficient as their free testosterone level (the bioavailable amount) is low.

The vast majority of ADHD meds block dopamine reuptake just like how SSRIs block serotonin uptake. The mechanism is pretty much the same as that of cocaine. Most people would feel like they're on speed if they took my meds but they actually calm me down (by preventing the brain from desperately trying get a dopamine response, which typically manifests as hyperactivity).

I remember trying cocaine for the first time in my youth. I couldn't understand why everybody else was talking a million miles an hour and I felt more 'normal', like I could go to work. I was literally thinking of the chores I'd been putting off all week!

I've heard this about ADHD meds a lot, although apparently all people, neurotypical and ADHD, actually tend to react broadly the same way to stimulant medications. I've also heard that a lot of people think their ADHD is "confirmed" when they feel relatively calm and able to concentrate for hours on ADHD meds, not knowing that most people feel like that (hence one of the reasons why Ritalin is an abused study drug, but cocaine or speed is not). The problem is that for some people ADHD drugs make them feel anxious and panicky (as just one side effect), this means some people with ADHD take the drugs, expecting to be confirmed as bona fide REAL TYPE ADHD and then feel like absolute frauds when that just isn't the case.

That's not to say ADHD meds aren't important, they have incredibly important functions for some people with ADHD and prevent deaths by suicide and misadventure just as one example of their many benefits for some people.

The woman they interviewed, Lucy Johnstone, sets out her position more widely (with another researcher) here:

https://www.madinamerica.com/neurodiversity-series/

You don’t have to agree with it. But I’m finding it a compelling position. Indeed a colleague who’s recently been diagnosed commented that they thought “it’s really modern life; everything would be better when all we did was farm.”

I struggle to place it alongside the children I teach who really struggle, and a couple of adults I know, but I don’t think that’s who she is describing.

I really like Mad in America, and somehow missed this - thanks!

I'm undecided either way, although like I said with "severely" autistic children I definitely have skin in the game. I appreciate most people don't mean my kids when they critique diagnostic labels and the ND movement etc.

I've heard this about ADHD meds a lot, although apparently all people, neurotypical and ADHD, actually tend to react broadly the same way to stimulant medications.

I've always heard the exact opposite. I just asked Google AI and it came back with the below:

When a neurotypical person takes ADHD stimulant medication (like Ritalin or Adderall), it acts as a central nervous system stimulant. Instead of creating a "paradoxical calming effect," it typically causes physical overstimulation, increased alertness, jitteriness, and higher blood pressure. Research also shows it can reduce cognitive efficiency or decrease actual problem-solving productivity on complex tasks.

I know kids take Adderall to study but I wonder if it's because it allows them to stay awake all night etc. A bit like how truck drivers in places like Thailand use amphetamines to keep them alert during long shifts that would be illegal in Europe.

Indeed a colleague who’s recently been diagnosed commented that they thought “it’s really modern life; everything would be better when all we did was farm.”

I think that when unmedicated I'd still be vastly disadvantaged compared to most normal people. I'd struggle to get to sleep so would find it difficult to get up at the crack of dawn. And doing boring repetitive tasks day in day out would be like torture.

Perhaps you can still work to create a lifestyle that suits you?
Living in a quiet place, avoiding unnecessary technology, time spent out of doors, whatever you crave?

I once heard a serious program on Radio 4 when they said sleeping through the night is a relatively recent thing. People used to sleep sitting upright and would regularly get up and down in the night to do odd tasks

I once heard a serious program on Radio 4 when they said sleeping through the night is a relatively recent thing. People used to sleep sitting upright and would regularly get up and down in the night to do odd tasks

I think it depends where the AI scrapes its information from. There's some science to suggest that ADHD drugs don't tend to make neurotypical people actually perform better academically (although they think they do!) This might be because people without ADHD don't have the impairments that ADHD meds help overcome (e.g. inattention) and the drugs don't actually make you smarter, so they don't really help studying as much as people think they do (unless you have ADHD!)

However, I've mostly heard that the paradoxical effect for those with ADHD is a myth and most people, neurotypical or neurodivergent, respond broadly similarly to ADHD drugs (although individuals may get different side effects). You certainly can't confirm diagnosis by the effect of the meds.

A Clinical Psychologist explains it here:
https://www.petrahoggarth.co.nz/post/dispelling-the-paradoxical-effect-myth-about-stimulant-medication

Wikipedia cites some research on this too (even though I wouldn't normally trust Wiki without reading sources):
Research from the 1980s popularized the belief that ADHD stimulants such as amphetamine have a calming effect in individuals with ADHD, but opposite effects in the general population.[2] Research in the early 2000s, however, disputes this claim, suggesting that ADHD stimulants have similar effects in adults with and without ADHD.[3][4]

Is taking the drug the acid test? A friend has recently been diagnosed autistic and adhd after a lifetime of bi polar diagnosis. She found the meds awful. Actually I’d always felt she was mildly autistic and had had extreme trauma from bullying at school. Where does she stand with that perspective?

That may be true but these people would likely still be mostly neurotypical. It's unlikely that ADHD is some primitive gene expression suited to bygone eras that occasionally still pops up. A lot of scientists think it's almost a form of stunted development as it's so common in premature babies and cases of parental substance abuse.

I was born very premature and am the only one in my family with ADHD. Lack of sleep makes my symptoms way worse. To the point the meds barely work, which is apparently usually the case. My neurotypical friends and family do much better on a poor night's sleep than I do as they mostly switch off and are able to sleep within minutes rather than lying in bed with their minds whirring away.

I used to have to get up at 4am every Friday in my last job. I'd still often be awake at 4am Saturday morn as I just struggled to go to bed due to the novelty of being able to stay up and sleep in the next morning, which I couldn't do in the week. My eyes would feel raw and I'd be sat on my Xbox popping ibuprofen so I could keep playing without being bothered by the headache/eye strain from being awake 24 hours, often having only got 4-5 hours the previous night.

I knew it was ridiculous but I just couldn't stop until I was back on the meds. I fully understand how the life expectancy of ADHD sufferers is so much lower - up to 14 years in some studies but usually at least 6-8 years.