Andy Burnham should put the damn social care tax on landlords and big occupational pensions

[CurdinHenry]

Why is it always workers who pay

Agree!!

I think we need a safety net, which protects people who are unable to work or have reached retirement age. It should provide a reasonable standard of living and cover needs. What is reasonable should be discussed at length and a consensus reached - maybe via a vote, as it would be a very big change. The vote should have costed figures, so people would know how much they would pay. How much they would pay for this protection, not how much rich/companies/you should pay.

The amount paid by NI contributions does not cover a lifetime’s worth of NHS and a pension. It is the current taxpayers that are picking up the bill. Standards of living have increased and so have healthcare costs.

If people want more than the prescribed needs, they will have to save up beforehand or put forward arguments why these are needs, rather than wants.

if someone is disabled they will have extra needs that an able bodied person doesn’t have. Needs should be met - wants should be individually paid for.

we need to end the segregation between how some illnesses are deemed NHS and paid for by the state (cancer) and some are deemed social care and are paid for by the individual or family (Alzheimer’s) Either illness is treated free at the point of need, or it isn’t. At the moment this split causes great hardship.

Above all, people need to stop lying to themself about quite how much all these services cost and how much tax needs to be paid by everyone in order to provide the safety net for all.

There is a lot of money already in the system - it just isn't flowing to the right people and a lot of it is being funneled off shore

Precisely, @neoname, though you forgot to include the cost of the backhanders too many providers pay to get those contracts in the first place

My disabled DS used to live in just the kind of facility you describe, with housing benefit paying over twice the going rate because of loopholes around what can be charged for those with additional needs

So I bought a house and rented it to him - yes, one of those landlords which many on MN despise - and now he's costing housing benefits only a third of what they once paid, I get a small retirement income, and most importantly DS is well housed and happy

It won't suit those who believe incompetent governments should be in charge of everything though ...

It needs a big conversation, but with various parties wanting to score points ( all of them ) it’ll be difficult to do without a lot of ‘ what aboutery’ and in fighting and people moaning.

Who gets to define when a life is worth living though? My dad is 80 and has advanced Parkinson’s and heart failure - he loves life and wants to keep living for as long as he’s able to do so well. Other people look
at his frail outer body but don’t know (until they speak to him) that he’s full of joy and despite physical limits, has a good mental quality of life. He always says that if his ‘joy of life’ leaves him then he’s happy to die but until then, he’ll keep going.

So... if you don't have any inheritance to leave you get away with not contributing... again.
The burden always seems to fall on the same shouolders.

They may not be high earners but the point is the young are paying proportionately more tax, more for higher education, more for housing ,more for energy and more for their pensions than previous generations had to pay in.

the problem is exacerbated by current boomers living longer on average with complex health issues requiring care where insufficient money has been set aside for their care in the erroneous belief the state would have a bottomless pit of money funded by the next generation.

I agree. Everybody needs to contribute according to their means.

Well said about the system, SEND is a dreadful mess. LA’s being taken to judicial review, to rightly, meet their statutory duty, but without having LA places available.
The LA has to find the place, using private providers to fill the gap. Not unusual for this place to cost over £100,000 per child per year. Funding coming from the LA SEND budget.
The Conservative governments austerity and opposition to LA’s has left such a mess of debt and very expensive, private places, using tax payers money.

Great for CEO’s in private companies, foreign and British investment companies and their shareholders.

They should put it on inheritance tax as it encourages people to give it away while they’re still alive which boosts the economy ( the recipients are more likely to spend it immediately than the giver) and inheritance is just money you never had so people won’t miss it. I should add this is a point of disagreement between myself and my elderly father but honestly, it has to come from somewhere and IHT is the least painful way. Workers ( on all salaries) pay enough.

I agree. Excepting between husband and wife, I think a 30% across the board, would be a good level. No exceptions for farms, companies, houses etc, but maybe allow the payment to be over 10 years in these cases. If you inherit your pat 30% to the government.

Maybe allow a minimum of £10k before taxing so very small levels of assets are left out,

Why landlords, do you think they are all sleeping on mattresses stuffed full of money?

We all need to pay for social care but as you are refering to big pensions. Ever looked at the public sector pensions? Nearly 30% being stuffed into teachers pensions by the government (i.e us!). Triple Lock.

What would I do...

1. Abolish Triple Lock
2. No Stamp Duty when you down size over the age of 65
3. Stop giving Doctors massive pay rises without addressing their pension situation. Now the consultants are at it too.

Basically everyone agrees that something needs to be done - they just want someone else to pay.

I like the idea of a 10% across the board. Everyone gets old. You push and push the wealthy and they leave the country and you then get zero in tax.

And is paid by every person in the uk, including every benefit. Truly universal.

It is a fallacy to believe that you can conjure up money out of people who don't have any, for what ever reason The burden is always going to fall on those who have money.

Reach into people's private pensions to plug a hole?

Yeah this is why people arent sure about ploughing money into their pensions.

What about savings accounts generally? ISAs? Shoukd the government be able to raid those, too?

📣 be responsible! Sacrifice a lot today to support yourself tomorrow - put as much as you can afford into your pension!

✋ ooohh that looks like a healthy sum.... gimmie!! We have some holes to plug ...

"exceptijg between husband and wife"

Punish people who never found love.

how nice.

at this point I'm going to leave the lot to charity.

ETA - continue to punish... we already are punished IHT wise for not finding someone to marry.

Would be crazy to apply it to LL, as tenants would end up paying higher rents, very unfair.

Yep, people ( the young ) won’t bother saving up or at more into a pension because whats the point ? They ( the government ) need to sell it in a way that doesn’t encourage people to not want to save up and be self sufficient, but it’s not an easy sell is it.

Councils used to have care homes. They were closed and sold off because they were too expensive to run as care home staff were on higher wages , better terms and conditions and pension costs were far higher in public sector.

You can't expect the private care home investors not to make a profit otherwise no one is going to provide care homes.

Better more affordable sheltered schemes might be an option to keep frail elderly safely housed, but care homes for those with dementia are complex businesses who have huge staffing issues.

I really hope he sorts it and it is good that he has some lived perspective of it too!

My DF has dementia and my DM looks after him at home .

ATM, he is OK in the home but mum is on her knees - myself and siblings are hours away and try to offer her a few days away respite a month (due to our work and child care commitments)

She should be recognised for what she does. She could accept more help, admittedly !

The elderly are the most vulnerable in society and need looking after !

However, I see the unfairness too - people have worked hard and contributed to society in taxes - they are then stung when having to pay extortionate care in old age.

Those who dont', get it free !

I do not know what the solution is . Other countries manage it eg Scandanavia , BUT their taxes are more !

Not if I've given it away /signed the house over well in advance.

This needs to be done carefully or it can be clawed back - deprivation of assets !

7 years I believe!

Putting own money already exists it's called self funding whether you have cash savings, investments , pension, or a house or other property. It's all in the pot.. We have that system now. The issue is funding for those who haven't got a pot ..

People setting up trust funds. It’s a solution , but again only if you can afford the fees to do it and the council doesn’t get wind of people doing it to avoid care home fees. I’m not sure how it works though.
I bet politicians all do it for their offspring.

State pension needs to rise with inflation to protect people from the cost of living rises.

I like the idea of 10% IHT for all aside from - for example - the first 10k - as well as phased tax bands - everyone ought to be paying something.

Then the NHS needs total reform. European style system instead with employer, insurance and individual payments via tax. Fix the waiting lists, allow people to see consultants when they need them and not have to wait a year to get in front of one.