To think far too many people in UK & elsewhere are making stupid decisions about drugs and ignoring the consequences re county lines, criminal gangs etc?

[Jane379]

I found out recently about the huge amount of cocaine in London sewage system. I knew there was a problem but was suprised how bad it was.
I read up on the situation a bit more and was shocked to find that Sweden & Belgium are apparently both concerned that the government starting to lose control to drug smugglers, problems are also rising in the Netherlands with journalists and lawyers mmurdered. Use also is rising in Norway especially among youth in Oslo etc.
AIBU to wonder what on earth people buying illegal cocaine & others are thinking?

A lot of the time it's not people in hugely depressing and difficult situations (not that this is an excuse, but I could understand the motive more) but people who are comfortably off, at least materially and surely could find other forms of stimulation?
It's well known that these drugs are addictive, and even if people aren't addicted and only use occasionally, why are so many happy to enable county lines, suffering in Mexico and others, violent criminal gangs etc for a temporary high? I've seen some users on here justify by saying the harm comes because it's illegal but that's dodging the question as for the foreseeable future they are illegal and buying from the gangs sustains the trade.

The problem with legalising Cocaine is

1. It's inherently dangerous (risk of heart attack etc) and it's hard to mitigate that
2. Unlike Cannabis which can be grown locally (as happens in Canada, America etc) Cocaine's a South American drug with established criminal supply lines. So I don't think it's easy to set up alternative, legal supply from the grower to the dealer. Are the legal, licensed sellers in the UK buying it from cartels outside the UK and importing it? I can't see the countries struggling with extreme gang violence thrilled the UK is funding them. Or do we set up a certification scheme for non-blood cocaine the same way diamonds were meant to be certified as non-blood diamonds. Because that risks shifting the criminal activity to laundering bad cocaine as good cocaine. As happened with blood diamonds. The one thing that stopped this is that non harmful (artificially created diamonds) became cheaper than the blood diamonds. So if they could make "good" cocaine cheaper that could work. But I can't see the criminals controlling cocaine growing currently would be happy with a "fair trade" non criminal coca leaf farm just setting up in their territory.

Yes, cannabis is a grey area. If that was legal (to grow) we wouldn't have spice for a start.

Your ultra calm demeanour when stoned is probably ideal for handling dogs.

This exactly. I don't know what kind of outcome people who want actual legalisation of cocaine hope to see.. Portugal & to some extent Amstersam are two of the more successful countries to have a harm reduction policy, and neither has legalised cocaine like any other substance

The UK is one of the worlds biggest legal supplier of medical cannabis.

I'm aware of this. I don't think there's a lot of overlap with the use of it medicinally, and those dealing it to people who like to be stoned though. Cannabis doesn't bother me at all personally as a whole, compared to other drugs it causes much fewer issues with county lines and exploitation/slavery etc and I know a lot of people who do it regularly who aren't your stereotypical 'down and out dosser in a block of flats' but it does still have its issues.

I see lots of young guys like this in my workplace. And old ones who are constantly stoned and do nothing all day. They all reek too, it makes the space stnk.

My kids in school can see perfectly well that the kids on drugs are going nowhere. A lot start using weed at about age 12. They get it from their pay who seem to believe it's safe, since it's legal. You see increasing numbers call it "medicine", especially if they buy it on reserve. The reserve close to me has about 10 weed shops on the main road when you drive through.

People have accepted this idea that it's "prohibition" that is the problem . If only it was legal people would be responsible.

That's not what I see. Hand in hand with weed legalisation, the rise of energy drinks, and corner cosmetic procedure shops, and masses of kids on prescription drugs, there is a massive change in attitudes to drugs generally. Better living through chemistry, become your true self.

What's weirdest to me is where I live you can be arrested for going down the street with an open beer. People come drunk into my workplace are kicked out. But you can comd in high, shoot up on the street in front of kids, there are young people slumped over in the street due to fent. They dll smoke weed all day too.

It's effectively " legal" now, all it has done is make people believe this is ok.

Nothing to do with poverty. These are party drugs. It’s not like all the celebrities and musicians who took drugs were impoverished is it?

This exactly..as I've said, I'm pro a more Portugal style policy if carefully implemented.

But a lot of supporters of relaxing rules (at least on here) seem to argue as simplistically as many posters who want harsher rules. I've seen lots of posts which argue medicinal use of cannabis & MDMA means they're not that bad, completely ignoring that lots of medicines are useful but couldn't be taken by all & sundry safely.

'But you can comd in high, shoot up on the street in front of kids, there are young people slumped over in the street due to fent. They dll smoke weed all day too.'

• this sounds awful. I wonder if the results are the same in places like Spain & the Netherlands which have legalised weed?

I used to support this and possibly still do but it definitely seems to have gone very badly in California from stuff I've read. From previous posts I've seen I think you're Canada-based, so I assume you're talking about Canada(I understand if you'd rather not say)? Why are restraints on using drugs at work or in the street not being implemented the same as with alcohol?

Yes I'm in Canada .

So, traditionally we had a pretty Puritan to booze in Canada. You had to buy it in a government shop, and pubs didn't have windows so people could not see in and be contaminated. It's much looser now but there are still rules like no open containers in public places.

With the hard drugs, a more healthcare based strategy was adopted a number of years ago as a part of a harm reduction strategy. The idea was to concentrate law enforcement on dealers but leave users alone. Part of the concern was clogging up jails and using police resources but getting no real change.

There is also a strong belief among the harm reduction proponents that there is no point in sending people to rehab unless they take themselves, and pushing them to go it is no good either.

As a result, the police have been told not to arrest people for using in the streets. There are really no tools to deal with people doing this kind of antisocial stuff. It's become normalised to a significant extent.

Thanks for this reply- interesting information, and worrying.. I'm sorry for not replying earlier, had been very busy but would like to continue the thread.

It seems to me that places like Spain & Amsterdam which have legalised weed have still got constraints on how, where & when it is consumed. It seems like Canada has leaned closer to the model of some US states where they haven't really enforced restraints, due the weird kind of attitude you described. It's especially odd they haven't done that when you say they've still got stricter attitudes towards alcohol.

That kind of harm reduction seems to slide too far into non-judgementalism. Portugal's harm reduction policy seemed to work well but they still mandate treatment.

It sounds very difficult, I hope they change the policy soon.

It seems to me that places like Spain & Amsterdam which have legalised weed have still got constraints on how, where & when it is consumed.

as have most countries for alcohol ....

Both harm reduction and stricter criminalisation proponents seem unrealistically hardline sometimes.

I do think a more Portgual-style approach might work for some drugs but it seems completely impractical for this to be the case for heroin & cocaine, to name 2 that I've seen some here & elsewhere advocate that legalisation includes.

I've also seen people on here and other places argue that the medicinal uses of MDMA & cannabis means they aren't harmful or not hugely but this is unrealistic. Plenty of medicines are worth taking if someone is very ill or in great pain but are otherwise not worth the risk.

I also get frustrated with the study cited that claimed horseriding was more dangerous than ecstasy :

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881108099672?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200pubmed

I respect David Nutt's work and it was wrong for the government to dismissed him like that. But I'm sceptical that horseriding is more dangerous per se than taking ecstasy. For one thing, riding includes a big range of activities. I doubt walking or trotting a calm horse around a familiar yard or field is as dangerous as taking ecstasy. Competitive riding is likely closer in risk, as well as general riding involving high speeds or obstacles.

Can I ask what you mean? You mean that the restraints on alcohol don't work well enough? Or something else?

With cannabis, I know some people in the UK grow their own, but it's important to remember that a lot is trafficked too using people who are essentially slaves.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gmmn46n8vo

I was merely noting that as far as I am aware there is not a jurisdiction in the world that does not place some state control over alcohol. What that may or may not do for this discussion is another matter.

With cannabis, I know some people in the UK grow their own, but it's important to remember that a lot is trafficked too using people who are essentially slaves.

They are also victims of prohibition. But why do you think people grow their own to dump the dealer ? No one likes mixing with criminals.

How will that stop children being groomed into drug gangs and the knife crime epidemic involving child on child murder over drugs.

And how does that stop the use of heroin, cocaine etc?

I always found it bizarre that during COVID when many legal things were hard to get in lockdown we didn't have a flood of heroin addicts struggling to acquire their drugs. Seems the cartels and gangs are better at distribution and production than legitimate business.

So you just mean "people take drugs!! Its awful"?

It was harder to shift things out to the towns. This led not to no supply but enough of a shortage in the early days that it all got a bit stabbier than usual in some areas.

It was easier to get heroin or cocaine than flour in lockdown.