AIBU to wonder if anti-English feeling is mostly about sport

[Batsratscatsgnats]

If you support anyone but England in football or other sports do you dislike English people generally or is it just in sports?

In fairness, who was in the army doesn't tell you who was in charge of an empire. A really big part of having an empire is that the colonised countries also provide the soldiers to hold the empire. This was true of the Aztecs who absorbed conquered people's into their war machine, it was true of the Zulus, and the Romans and the Ottoman empire and the British empire. The Ottoman empire was not Slavic because they had Slavic soldiers. We didn't train Jannisseries like the Ottomans did, but we did recruit from across the Empire. In a sense all empires or systems rely on the majority of people within the system either going along with it or not having any alternative in view. Thats not the same thing as the system being good for people or what they choose. But the system was built, mostly by British (including Scottish) men

Hmm...

Bantaaa.

Well, the thread was about the relationship between England and other countries in the UK and then widened to include a discussion on how colonialism fitted in to that. You weren't the only one posting, and I don't think that you said that Scotland was colonised. But the discussion was about the different parts of Britain's roles and responsibilities in bad things Britain did.
For things like the potatoe famine it is actually quite important to draw distinctions between Scotland and Ireland. I went into more detail earlier but if you want to understand anti-Irish racism you do need to be able to talk about the different ways Catholic Irish were treated compared to other parts of the UK. Erasing that, or saying it was the same for Scotland (not saying you said that) erases some of the truth of that history.

Dreadful Anglo-centrism! What's wrong with the M8?

In what possible way does that slag off the Scots?

Fancy that Scotland having the shit that England have to take! Blame some of the clear Scottish xenophobics on the thread. In fact, I don't know why @Batsratscatsgnats started this thread, because it was obvious which way it would go.

I was going to type M8 but then noticed the thread had taken a turn and so maybe safer to pretend I was English and M25 was the default! 😳🤣

Well how would she know who an English person is? Because they have an English accent? I know several athletes (personally and by repute) who have very southern English accents but compete for Scotland and Wales. And Beth Dobbin who recently retired is from Doncaster and sounds like she's from Doncaster, but she competed for Scotland at the last Commonwealth Games.

You can't hate people because of their accent. That's mad.

Also, I'd suggest people read up about the Welsh Not - it wasn't the English teachers mistreating children, it was Welsh parents wanting their children to speak English so they'd get on better in life.

It was allowed for England and Wales I believe for this game.

I'm Irish Catholic heritage. I was born in Scotland. As were my parents and grandparents actually. I am well aware. It still goes on here but, admittedly, not as bad as it did when I was growing up.

Can I give you a quick example?

We have a particularly Irish surname. Obviously not mine, my husband's.

My son studied Theology, Philosophy and Secondary Teaching at Glasgow and teaches in ND schools. (RMPS).

In his first placement school, a member of the SMT introduced himself by saying "so you'll be a fenian then?". then the next one said "just to let you know this is a Rangers school".

I have never said it was the same for Scotland. Because what I would have said about anti Irish bigotry was that it is still the same in pockets of Scotland.

But I still don't understand what any of this has to do with people not supporting England in a football tournament.

I didn't say it did.

Too many junctions.

Anyway anti-English feeling is driven by harking back to the past (and often a very flawed and badly informed view of the past) instead of looking forward to the future. For example, Culloden was not an English versus Scottish battle and a lot of "English" decisions were taken by the "British" government.

The "Shortest History" of series are excellent for getting a more accurate overview of the history of various countries. I've read the ones on England, Ireland, Austria and Germany and have the ones on the USA and Scotland to read (and there are loads more of them).

Living together in harmony is much better for everyone's wellbeing than moaning about things someone did hundreds of years ago.

As a young Scottish girl living in England from the age of 9, I met plenty. I was bullied awfully at school for being Scottish. Mocked for my accent (I lost it on purpose due to that). Called Macflee as it rhymed with my surname. Had no real friends between the ages of 9 and 12 (it slightly improved at high school). Referred to as a Sweaty Sock even up until university.

When I was young I was definitely ABE due to my experiences. Now, 40 years later, I'm less bothered and just want to see a good game of football. I was glad they won last night as it made my husband and son happy.

OK, well you've lost me then...

Read your own posts!

As regards foot soldiers, that's true.

However, many Scottish and Irish men rose to very senior positions in the army, because they were British citizens and it was a British empire.

Well yes,
Irish migrants to England and Scotland experienced anti-Irish prejudice and anti-Catholic prejudice. It's why the politics of Liverpool and parts of Scotland are kind of complicated because a lot of the people there are descendants of Irish migrants so there's that heritage and sometimes continuing tensions as a result (being called Fenian, Rangers versus Celtic).

The example of the difference between how the Irish were viewed and how the Scottish and other British people were viewed would be the response to the Potatoes blight. Scotland was hit by a potatoe famine first. In discussing policy for the Highland Potato Famine on 20 September 1846, Trevelyan wrote: "The people cannot, under any circumstances, be allowed to starve." There were extensive relief works and aid poured in and, though many emigrated, there was no huge death toll. Although he had a laidsez faire approach to economics in general, he was not prepared to let people die for it. This was very much NOT Trevelyan's policy when the potatoes famine hit Ireland. A big part of this is that the Irish were viewed as more feckless/less deserving than the rest of the UK (including Scotland). It was prejudice basically

Of course, lots of people now in Scotland and England have ancestors affected by the Irish potatoe famine because many people emigrated to avoid starvation. But my point was that the attitude towards the Scottish/English/Welsh at the time (including the often maligned working classes) was different to the attitude towards the Irish. Incidentally the British government had a legal responsibility not to let citizens starve to death since 1602. Even though Ireland was officially part of the UK, it was viewed and treated differently.
Of course,.Irish landowners and Irish aristocrats also had a part to play. But that's a whole other complication.

I have Irish and Scottish and Welsh blood. Am I a victim or an evil oppressor? Is this a matter of (as someone else suggested) my accent? I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I just think history's important.

But I still don't understand what any of this has to do with people not supporting England in a football tournament.
@Differentforgirls I don't either. But it was the reason some people gave for not supporting England. Noone has to support England. But "Scottish landowners forced Scottish crofters of their lands" is an odd reason for not supporting the English.

I agree with you.

Well it appears you don't know much about football either. Or sarcasm.

I'm just puzzled how anyone living in Scotland during April and May, if they were paying any attention to the Scottish media could have failed to notice that Hearts were considered by all the pundits to be in with a very good chance of winning and breaking the Old Firm monopoly.

Your assertion that Hearts had no chance is bizarre.

The precursor East India Company had a distinctly Scottish tone. They were the ones making the money. Nearly 60% of merchants were Scottish.

Irish migrants to England and Scotland experienced anti-Irish prejudice and anti-Catholic prejudice. It's why the politics of Liverpool and parts of Scotland are kind of complicated because a lot of the people there are descendants of Irish migrants so there's that heritage and sometimes continuing tensions as a result (being called Fenian, Rangers versus Celtic).

Anti Catholic prejudice is a West coast thing. Catholics on the east coast generally are not of Irish descent but are families, like my own, who didn't convert.

Absolutely, not slagging off the Scotts. They were often truly exceptional soldiers some of the finest in the British army. Scottish merchants were the backbone of the EastIndia company, very canny businessmen, made a fortune.
I think it is perceived as ‘slagging off’ as some people want to wear the mantle of victimhood and the truth often doesn’t fit.
@Persephonia1966As others have said the foot soldiers are often from the oppressed, that’s why I mentioned Wellington, Field Marshal and then prime minister. I can give plenty of other examples.

There are countless less fortunate examples. Pulling put individuals and saying that means the colonies weren't so bad is in extremely poor taste and inaccurate. There are lots of examples of English barborism in Ireland a few soliders doesn't make that okay. Maybe look up what happened to leaders like Robert Emmet. It wasn't a partnership
The Irish people did not do well out of it
Colonialism is unfair and wrong. This should not be controversial and your argument is deeply flawed.