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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to expect junior doctors to work unsociable hours

26 replies

tropicalfish · 20/11/2015 22:34

please watch this and sign the petition to protect the nhs.

The new contract is bad for all junior doctors but in particular expecting junior doctors to work unsociable hours will force many women (doctors) to give up working altogether; It will stop many women from entering the profession. This is not a health service that will serve the whole community. Please protect our nhs from being degraded.

OP posts:
AyeAmarok · 20/11/2015 22:39

Are you saying you don't think junior doctors should have to work unsociable hours? Confused

Musicaltheatremum · 20/11/2015 22:51

All juniors expect to work unsocial hours. That is not the problem. It is far mor complicated than that and due to the hours that they are planning to say are unsocial. I was a junior doctor in 1986 when we worked 120 hour weeks with the hours above 40 paid at 1/3 rate which was less than the cleaners. Trouble is they have to cover so many wards now it is not safe. These people who have voted are intelligent people. Don't ignore them.

JessieMcJessie · 20/11/2015 22:59

Your subject line and your OP contradict one another.

PaulAnkaTheDog · 20/11/2015 23:00

I'm sorry, what do you want? You completely contradict yourself=

ghostyslovesheep · 20/11/2015 23:01

confusing OP???

but to answer the actual AIBU no yanbu to expect junior Dr's to work unsocial hours - I think most of them expect to!

It is unreasonable for them not to be paid well for it though

NinaSimoneful · 20/11/2015 23:24

Yabu
Yanbu
Eh, actually I'm not sure this time Confused

lougle · 20/11/2015 23:50

Juniors work unsocial hours. All the time. The issue is that the Govt. want to call some currently unsociable hours 'sociable' and then reduce the pay for the unsociable hours, while passing off a tiny increase in base contract as 'fair'.

Strangely, people who got into medicine because they proved themselves very intelligent, can do the maths and see that it results in a huge pay cut overall.

Original poster
tropicalfish · 21/11/2015 00:40

Sorry for the confusion. I meant that the new contract is extremely unfair and bad for the future of the nhs. Just one reason being, that extremely intelligent people will see it as being a bad deal and choose to leave the profession. It will have a significant effect on women doctors who will be unable to secure childcare for unsociable hours.
My title was meant to be a question,

OP posts:
Original poster
tropicalfish · 21/11/2015 00:48

yes but please sign the petition

OP posts:
MangosteenSoda · 21/11/2015 00:53

Surely the problem isn't the unsociability of the hours, but the sheer number of them. It's dangerous.

Headmelt · 21/11/2015 01:16

Maybe not Unreasonable to have to work Unsociable hours but expecting a human being to work 24hr+ straight shifts without adequate breaks and little or no sleep is beyond unreasonable. Everyone complains about how badly run the NHS is but the people working to keep it turning over are expected to put up and shut up. The Government need to realise you get what you pay for. These people have spent years studying/training/qualifying and incur huge debt (in most cases) to do so, only to be treated so appallingly that they are leaving their Countries in droves to get an adequate level of pay and better conditions in other Countries such as New Zealand, Australia, America etc. They are being forced to make a stand.

nocoolnamesleft · 21/11/2015 04:50

They do already work unsociable hours. Either that or else I have recurring hallucinations, when I think I see them at work nights and weekends (doubtless due to my own sleep deprivation!). I would prefer them not to work insanely inumane hours.

I support junior doctors.

x2boys · 21/11/2015 06:39

i,m out of the NHS now and whilst following this and agree the proposals are unfair i,m a bit unclear are junior drs expected to work the ridiculous hours like they used to when i first qualified as a nurse 20 yrs ago ? They would then do a full working week and be on call some nights and all weekend it was ridiculous and unfair and sometimes downright dangerous,junior drs will have to work unsocial hours though its a 24 hr health service but they should be paid fairly for it.

Enjolrass · 21/11/2015 06:50

Of course junior doctors should work unsociable hours?

It's a 24 hour service.

Women Doctors know this when they have kids and so plan around it.

Women with young kids are unlikely to train to be junior doctors, if they have no way of providing childcare.

What about male doctors who have kids?

I support junior doctors, but having all junior doctors working 'normal office' hours will be awful. If you are admitted at night or on a weekend there would be no doctors?

x2boys · 21/11/2015 06:52

bringing women and childcare into the discussion is irrelevant as pp,s have said all junior drs expect to work unsociable hours people dont just get sick monday to friday 9-5 its an expectation of the job that they will have to work nights and weekends but they should have a set amount of hours in a week and be paid fairly for unsical hours.

lougle · 21/11/2015 08:44

Enjolrass nobody, save nobody, is saying that junior doctors (defined as anybody below Consultant grade) should not work unsocial hours. The issue is that they are having pay reduced for those hours. Currently, 7pm-7am each weekday, and the whole weekend are considered 'unsocial'. The govt. wants to change that to 10pm-7am Monday-Saturday and all day Sunday.

Brummiegirl15 · 21/11/2015 08:56

Every single doctor expects to work unsociable hours. They know that when they go into medicine that it involves nights and weekends.

The current issue isn't about unsociable hours - it's about Jeremy Cunt Hunt making those hours sociable so doctors now effectively get a whopping pay cut.

But then people say oh but they are getting an 11% pay rise. No they aren't!!!!!!

x2boys · 21/11/2015 08:57

if they push it through with the doctors they will start with nurses next i,m not nursing anymore but weekend rates really bump up your pay why would anyone want to work weekends without enhancements on their pay or less enhancements people will leave or go off sick.

Enjolrass · 21/11/2015 09:00

lougle yes I know what the contract is being offered.

The op said

The new contract is bad for all junior doctors but in particular expecting junior doctors to work unsociable hours will force many women (doctors) to give up working altogether; It will stop many women from entering the profession.

Then changed it to 'oh I think this contract is just bad'

The OP is very different to the very odd backtrack clarification from the OP.

As is the contract changes are bad for all doctors not just female junior doctors.

If the OP meant 'this contract is shit please support junior doctors' the bit about women wouldn't be relevant

x2boys · 21/11/2015 09:03

yeah i agree Enjolrass the bit about women and childcare is totally irrelevant.

Enjolrass · 21/11/2015 09:03

In fact the bit about women was specifically put in there to make mners 'care'.

Rather than posting a reasonable point and asking for support, the OP posted something incorrect but added that it's negative for women to get more signatures. I am quite insulted the OP seems to think we would have no clue.

MrsLeighHalfpenny · 21/11/2015 09:09

Someone has to work unsocial hours to !iok after people who are I'll during the night.

I think it's the number of hours they work, and the pay for those hours that's the issue, not whether or not they are "unsocial"

Autumnfan · 21/11/2015 19:18

Actually the bit about women and children is pretty relevant, albeit badly explained. I'm in my early 30s, a mum of 2 and a junior doctor in a&e. I can manage my current childcare arrangement on my current salary around my current hours. If the contract changes go ahead a&e drs are likely to be among the hardest hit financially. This is already a difficult specialty to recruit and retain doctors in. I am giving serious consideration to changing my training programme to something with less of an out-of-hour commitment. Not because I don't want to continue on my current path; I love a&e even now, but it's hard to see past the constant criticisms of lazy, greedy and entitled. Where is the incentive for the current batch of juniors picking their specialties? i don't know any of that grade actually planning to apply. The need for those doctors isn't going away though. So I suspect what we'll see next year are a&e depts staffed by proportionally more locum doctors (more expensive, variable quality and reliability). Women will be more likely than ever to look at specialties like dermatology/rheumatology/microbiology. We need diversity in our a&e staff!

SilverBirchWithout · 21/11/2015 19:29

Junior Drs do work unsociable hours. At the moment their salary banding (usually 30%-50% on top of their basic ) salary takes in to account the type of contract and department they work in. The Govt wants to remove the banded element of the salary and the protection against excessive total hours worked. The majority of doctors also often willing work over their rota hours when the need arises because a patient needs their attention or their tasks for the shift have not finished.

I know this because my DS qualified this year. In the past 3 weeks he has worked the majority of weekends, only had 3 days off, worked some shifts from 3pm to 10pm and stayed on a number of occasions 1-2hrs after his shift ended.