New bereavement leave entitlement after loss of chemical pregnancy or unsuccessful IVF transfer

[JibbIe]

This has just been announced and I couldn’t see a thread about it.

No proof of pregnancy needs to be provided and the unpaid leave can be taken daily or in weekly blocks within 56 weeks of the loss.

Both men and women can take the leave.

Due to start next April.

The leave applies to all losses up to 24 weeks but I thought the fact that it will be available from the moment of conception (as opposed to, say, from your booking in appointment) was interesting.

Here is the Gov link with more info.

www.gov.uk/government/news/no-one-should-have-to-fight-for-time-to-grieve-new-rights-for-family-bereavement-and-pregnancy-loss

Absolute madness

I don’t think anyone is going to be telling lies to get it if that’s what these posts are implying - it’s unpaid 🤷🏻‍♀️
Its definitely a step in the right direction for those who have had miscarriages and not been granted the space to grieve the loss.

Care to explain why you think that?

This is unpaid leave. What would be better for anyone facing this is to get sick leave which will at least be paid.

Because it's yet another reason for employers to stop employing or promoting women..... I know they shouldn't discriminate, but they'll find a way.
The more we put forward women as "wilting flowers" (eg menopause leave), the more we jeopardise their opportunities at work.

I’ve had a few chemicals and wouldn’t put them anywhere near the same level of grief as a miscarriage later on. I think sick leave for women should be from miscarrying a foetus, not an embryo. For women only as she has to miscarry and it can be painful as well as upsetting. I can only understand bereavement leave for men if the miscarriage was late term.

Gosh no I didn’t mean that at all - quite the opposite. When I was on the Conception boards, some poor women were getting regular chemical pregnancies. And then on the IVF boards, women can have a number of unsuccessful transfers. I suppose I was just surprised that there are no restrictions on the legislation - other than the fact it is unpaid which will of course prevent many women and their partners from taking it, sadly.

It's available for men too, though.

I suppose it’s no different to taking sick leave after something like this happens.

I’ll be interested to see what the take up of it is, particularly early on - most women probably don’t want their employers to know they’re trying to get pregnant.

Well it isn't obligatory!

I agree it’s utter madness when the economy is already on its knees and businesses are struggling as it is. Chemical pregnancy and early miscarriage is extremely common and this may sound harsh, but while it can be devastating, it’s also just part and parcel of trying to have a baby, in my opinion. I say this as someone who had multiple miscarriages and multiple rounds of IVF. That said, I wouldn’t have dreamed of taking leave for these even if available at the time as it would have been career limiting and I wouldn’t have wanted my employer to know I was trying to get pregnant. Not that they are unsupportive just that it’s my private business. I would also never compare my multiple miscarriages before 12 weeks to someone who had lost a baby near or full term, or lost a child. Not diminishing others’ grief but I truly don’t think they are in any way comparable. If someone is really struggling they can already get signed off on sick leave but I don’t think it’s healthy or wise to normalise treating every early miscarriage or chemical pregnancy as akin to a bereavement.

Men can take it too

Yeah that's what I said, better to go sick and get paid leave. Also I think a lot of people wouldn't want to inform their employer re miscarriage, I know I didn't.

How can people be bereaved after unsuccessful ivf?

That’s not a bereavement and to suggest that it is is insulting and insensitive to people who are actually bereaved.

I apologise if I misunderstood. It was your comment about no proof needing to be provided.

Will women still have the option to take (paid) sick leave after a miscarriage as before? Otherwise it's a backward step.

It’s unpaid leave, very few people will take it unless they need it

I hope nobody in your life ever has to go through this so they don't have to deal with your insensitive and insulting assumptions about what they should be feeling. That embryo has been loved and longed for from the day it was fertilised, all through the process to transplantation, and through the two week wait. Some of those embryos have been frozen for years, with hopeful parents holding them in their thoughts and wondering who they have the potential to become. You clearly know very little about IVF. Solidarity to any fellow IVF warriors. Have the day you deserve, SpottyPyjama

A unsuccessful transfer is similar to a miscarriage when you think about it - you have an embryo but it doesn’t survive transfer to the womb for whatever reason. People can and do grieve for those embryos for obvious reasons.

I don't think a failed IVF is the same kind of bereavement as a miscarriage but it is extremely stressful, upsetting and a lot of hormones are causing havoc so it would be understandable to take some time off.

When I had my 12 week miscarriage it happened on a Saturday. Dh went back to work on the monday and I spent the day on the sofa. I'd lost a lot of blood and i really should have made sure I drank plenty of water but I was so upset I didn't really care what happened to me. By the time dh came home I was feeling really dizzy and I ended up back on the gynae ward on a drip. He took the next 2 days off to make sure I was ok.

This was 2005. If dh had been at home on the monday he would have been encouraging me to drink water, bought some fancy squash, ice lollies etc. I wouldn't have got ill I think. Or if we'd been told in a and e that it was important to drink plenty after losing that much blood.

I think it's good that both men and women can take some time off after a miscarriage. Hopefully by having no limit on how far along the pregnancy is and making the leave unpaid then people will only take the leave they need.

I get where you’re coming from, IVF is a painful and emotionally draining process. And yes, having gone through it I can confirm that I had stronger feelings for the embryos than I ever would have thought possible given I’m a fairly rational and unemotional person normally. I would talk to my last frozen embryo (in my head only!) every time I went past the clinic for 2 years, I think I truly did love him before he was even inside me. But I still don’t think that in any way compares to someone losing a child, full term pregnancy or sibling, parent etc and I would find it a bit insensitive if someone tried to equate IVF failure to implant to that. Also where do you draw the line, what about people who never had children because they can’t, couldn’t afford IVF, didn’t meet the right person etc. I’m not sure that loss is any less meaningful than ivf or early pregnancy losses.

Well it's simple, isn't it? If you feel like you can be a brave soldier and carry on - you do you. But it's cruel not to acknowledge that others might feel very differently.

It sounds like you are lucky enough to never need IVF. So you have no idea about the number of procedures, appointments and medications involved. Plus with rounds typically being £10k+ then people can hardly just try again next month, as people get to do with natural conception