Has everyone seen the photo of the Archbishop of Canterbury presenting an award to Hafiz Muhammad Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi? If not, please have a look

[TheStateWeAreIn]

I don’t know what to say really, I just want as many women on MN as possible to see this picture.

Particularly Hafiz Muhammad Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi‘s wife.

There’s so much going on there.

(I know there’s another thread about the award and it’s subsequent withdrawal, I just wanted to start a thread to focus on the photo)

@Theratttyou are dehumanising this person because she’s covering her face. They are still a human. I interact with a niqab everyday as she is my son’s TA.

@TalkinpeaceDon't you worry. They understand how to follow rules as in to show their face when needed, like a passport photo.

I’m actually very glad you mentioned sunglasses.

I can put my hand in my heart and say, without exception, if I’m being introduced to someone or holding a conversation with somebody for the first time, even ordering drinks from an outside bar, I always remove my sunglasses. I’ve always felt it’s a form of politeness and acknowledgement to make eye contact and to also send the message that I am interested in the person enough to give them my full attention. I also very much appreciate the courtesy of others doing the same to me.

I’ve never been told to do this, it’s just something I believe is right because we are visual beings and read such a huge amount from each others subtle facial language.

Surely if someone is religious enough to wear one, they couldn’t be a doctor. Doctors have to touch their patients - they wouldn’t be able to choose the sex of their patients so would have to handle both men and women potentially intimately. How would that work?

Face coverings are banned in my NHS Trust ( and I hope in all others). They are allowed to wear them on breaks but not when patient facing.

Agree. That was a straw man argument. It could also be pointed out that a niqab isn’t practical or hygienic for a doctor to practice efficiently in.

No. They are dehumanising themselves. You cannot interact with anyone normally if you can only see 2mm of their eyeball. That's just common sense fact.

How do you know ?

If the person in front of your son is in a niqab
(according to the generderists )
they could be a man

In reality
they could be ANY woman, not the one DBS checked to look after your child

Ditto all the expectations of women in terms of grooming and sexual positions/ kinks thanks to pornography.

The doctor was an example situation to show that if you want to you will find a way to communicate . If the NHS has a ban, then there we go. They understand and can follow rules. Just like you and me

Honestly, I'd sooner ban football shirts as items of clothing than burqas or niqabs.

At least the women wearing the face coverings are just living their life in adherence to their devout religious beliefs, whereas men in football jerseys are always up to no good in my experience.

Mahsa Amini

Don't feed it.

An aside re sunglasses - they serve a useful purpose - avoiding UV damage, and for some eye conditions people really do need to wear them outside.

Children should see the face of the adults who teach them too.

@TalkinpeaceCan you really not identify someone you know by their voice, their eyes, their shape, or even the back of their head? It’s honestly not as difficult as people make it out to be — trust me, just get to know someone who wears a niqab.
And if you’ve ever visited a SEN school, you’d also know that there are already security systems and procedures in place to deal with safeguarding and identification. There are ways of keeping people safe without assuming that everyone who wears a niqab automatically creates a security problem.

It's not dehumanising. Many countries are now banning the burka and niqab, France, Belgium, Austria and others, also some Muslum countries like Tunisia. They have done it for reasons of national security and to promote community cohesion. This is entirely reasonable and sensible.

Well except most of them aren't. They're being forced to. And then in some cases being killed if they don't. But yes, let's equate it to football shirts. Really?? You have no idea of the harm being caused.

Sorry I'm not familiar with football, what club does he play for?

@EasternStandardThank God my son, and the other SEN children in that class, don’t think that way. They’re completely comfortable with someone wearing a face covering. Perhaps they don’t judge people based on their clothing.
And trust me, she is absolutely able to communicate with non-verbal children while wearing a niqab. Communication isn’t only about seeing someone’s whole face — there are many other ways people connect and understand each other.

So why ban balaclavas?

The niqab is basically saying 1) men can only look at women in a sexual way 2) it’s not their fault, it’s the way they are made and 3) the solution is to hide women away. That is why that garment is unacceptable to me, most certainly in a European context. If I was faced with a doctor ( or anyone else in a professional capacity) in a niqab I would refuse the consultation. I grew up in a Muslim country, I saw the misogyny and the everyday sexual harassment and violence and I am not at all keen for any of that ideology to be imported here.

I don’t think it’s good the school are normalising a covered face. Of course children accept anything, it doesn’t mean adults should ask them to.

And tough luck for any kid who needs to lip read...

Covering your face also makes it much harder for people who are hard of hearing to be able to understand you. My dad had terrible hearing as he got older but he got by with being able to lip read. He really struggled during Covid.