Dd can't get promoted. Govt job.

[Sadwork]

Not for Facebook use.

Dd is late 20s. She's been working in a govt department for a few years. Has moved up slightly.

She's applied for lots of promotions and had a few interviews. No joy. It's really getting her down. She wants to move from the area she's in but can't afford it. She doesn't live with her dp.
Had anyone experienced this in gov jobs? Does your face have to fit?
She won't want to move back home and tbh commute would be difficult.

Gahh existing!

I’d like to think I’m exciting though 😀 I sent an email earlier saying ‘I agree with your proposal’ rather than ‘I agree with your proposed approach.’

I’m a rebel 🤣

100% agree with this. Although success profiles is used you still very much need to tailor your examples to the role and person specification. Especially so at the higher grades.
I recently went for a G7 role in my team. I know I could do it, my G6 knows I can do it, but I flunked at the interview (I let nerves get the better of me).
I do think that there is also an (unrealistic) expectation that candidates should be already regularly performing at the grade they're applying for, rather than demonstrating they have the potential to do so. Possibly because of the heavy competition for jobs PPs have mentioned.
Your DD really needs to seek out feedback and identify the areas she needs to develop. That might mean offering to take on some more challenging work, or even moving laterally to fill a gap that her current role may not be able to.

@Winederlust I think you’re right we expect people to already be performing at the grade. I’m currently recruiting for G7 posts and there’s a lot of discrepancy amongst the panel in terms of how to grade, especially for people coming from outside the sector, I’m willing to progress more people to interview to meet them and see if they understand the jump to G7, but my panel members are quite quick to want to fail them at sift for not meeting the standard now.

I’m sorry you didn’t pass though, no way I would fail someone who I know is capable of doing the job, I’d hand hold them through that interview until they got those boxes ticked! It’s hard to find good staff. Easy to get applications.

I’ve worked in senior public sector/government roles for over 30 years and worked my own way up including interviewing team candidates. One of the biggest mistakes I saw for internal candidates was an assumption that the interview panel knew them, many didn’t answer as fully as an external candidate because of this and the panel just can’t award marks if the comments are not made. There can also be a modesty or reluctance with internal candidates who perhaps don’t want to brag or take full credit for work in front of folk they know, of course an external candidate is free to be fully honest and I’m sure over-egg at times. My advice would be to do as much research as they would for an external opportunity and behave like an external candidate. Very best of luck, it is so good to see people thrive and achieve their ambitions within an organisation, it says a lot for the mentoring and training and is a very positive endorsement.

The face doesn’t fit is often an excuse used by people who are bad at interviews. I have encountered many bitter people in my career who say they haven’t been promoted because their face didn’t fit when simply they interview poorly (and I have interviews hundred of people over the years).

don’t let her get bitter and don’t introduce this kind of language or excuse. It’s a competitive process, take the learning, take the feedback, try some mock interviews. Does she have a mentor?

sometime people don’t progress as far as they would like - not everyone can be a super star and not everyone will get promoted - it isn’t an automotive right

This is the opposite to my experience. Civil service interviews have to show they are fair and they follow a formula and show why they have appointed who they have.
For a civil service promotion she will have to demonstrate the skills/competences at the higher grade.
What grade is she now and what grade is she trying for?
Has she asked for feedback? And discussed it with her manager?
It's not unusual to have to try for several promotions before being successful

Yes, this.

I have sat in on interviews for PS jobs, as a union observer as well as being on both sides of the process myself. In one notable setting, a particular candidate had applied for 2 roles. In the first interview he virtually gave one word answers, no enthusiasm came over at all. He didn't get the job.

In the break, I had a word with him, explaining that actually the panel had very little knowledge of his experience and skills, that he needed to talk about what he had done and how that would inform his future practice. I did not coach him in what to say.

In the following interview, the panel and I were astounded when he talked about a potentially dangerous situation, where he had taken charge, directed staff to safe places, called the necessary services and averted escalation.
He had made no mention of this previously. It was honestly like listening to a different candidate. He got the job.

OP, your DD should ask for feedback and act on it.

if she is unhappy she can and should consider roles outside of the sector. Jobs perceived as safe have other pitfalls. I think you should take an interest (as you are), help with job searches, feedback advice etc if she wants it (which you are), but let her steer her own ship. Don’t try to dissuade her from moving to a sector that you perceive as less safe. If the job appeals, gives enough money, isn’t ‘unsafe’ eg zero hours, then just support her and encourage her with her choice. Even if it is, eg., zero hours or freelance, or a highly competitive industry, it’s just a chat about how to mitigate the risks and/ or what’s the plan B, not simply “oh no, stick with government as it’s nice and safe”.

I work in Local Government. That is absolutely not the case in my experience.

I’m in the same position and have taken a role a grade below on one of the graduate schemes to retrain and hopefully get out. I’m in my 30s with family/mortgage etc but I can’t stay in the job I’m in at the moment as it’s stagnant and there’s no money for training or much opportunity for experience to widen my skills for promotion. It’s a really hard market at the moment so it might be an opportunity to reassess what she wants and where she wants to go. Some areas have mentors could she ask and if if there’s anyone that can do that? They could guide her to the right experience etc to get the promotion at some point.

How easy it is to promote does vary a lot by department. Generally though, the advice if you are failing to get promotions is to apply for a level move into another team to broaden your experience at your current level.

SCS can be different in different depts. Some are G5 some G6. Deputy Directors in the main though.

I've also done sifting and recruitment in the civil service and we've had to go quite harsh with sifting because of the amount of applicants that just purely use AI in the application process. We know that if one gets through to interview they will either be absolutely hopeless and not qualified to do the job, or quite a few just withdraw before their interview. It's so easy to apply for a job you're not qualified to do using AI, which is why recruiters are absolutely drowning in applications from these chancers, and also why the whole application process is taking longer. It's not against the rules to use AI to help you write the application but everything on it has to be true and you have to demonstrate it by talking of your experience (using the STAR format) at interview. Success Profiles are being scrapped but no word as to the timetable for this or what will replace them.

It's not against the rules to use AI, but

@Jo1667weve had to add a prescreening step because of AI, the thing we’ve found is genuinely good candidates are using it too and falling into traps, and frankly we don’t want to lose them. We struggle to recruit (we get high numbers of applicants, but not good quality ones) so we’ve added a pre screen as a sort of validation point for the application and so we don’t have to spend hours and hours formally interviewing. Because the thing is, AI applications can score well technically speaking even when the vibe is off.

I've interviewed some people several times over, given extensive feedback and then they interview in much the same way (if not worse!) for the next role.
If she's working hard in her own role, and acting on interview feedback then theres not much else she can do unfortunately.

Haha I did wonder 😅

She's management atm. But is applying for upper levels.

Does she want to move Depts? A leap from operations to policy is difficult at the best of times. She should look at some of the unglamerous support roles as a way in, they are always less popular. As PP said, everyone wants to work with Ministers (well until they've met them!!). FoI and other business support functions used to always be crying out for staff.

I've shown her the thread. Thanks everyone for your help.

Totally agree with this .Staff used to be furious that they didnt get the post but didnt answer the questions as well as external candidates .
Was really frustrating as even with prompting to expand on their answers we lost out on really good staff who just assumed we knew they could do the job .
I always told people assume we don't know you and if you don't say it we can't count it .

Leaving their job? Exiting? Maybe that's what they meant?

It was meant to be ‘existing’ was a funny typo that’s all

Without wanting to be too blunt she might not be ready for the next level yet. I saw a lot of people very keen to move on after a few years in a role, often because it was poorly paid, but actually they were performing at that level and weren’t ready for a promotion. Some govt structures (not referring to civil service) don’t have many grades and people spend a lot of years at one grade.

If she is desperate the answer is to chase the grade, and work out which roles are less popular. Alternatively as others have suggested a sideways move for a year or so can help.

I'd assume she maybe doesn't have the breadth of experience required for senior management yet.

This was me. I realised in the end that I wasn’t very good at interviews so I got interview coaching and it really helped. I also read the below to build my confidence. Great book. it worked in the end.

www.amazon.co.uk/Why-You-Interview-Questions-Youll/dp/0241970210

Some great advice up thread about interviewing, preparing, focus on behaviours relevant to the job and strengths. Your daughter really needs to sell what she has done. If it helps to give her hope.... I went for about five interviews for one grade early in my career, but was a terrible interviewee so got stuck for a while in my twenties. I got cross about it, with myself, and really worked on how I could come across better. Built up my work examples relevant to the next grade, pushed myself out of my comfort zone a LOT. After that, I seemed to hit the mark at interviews, started climbing and ended up at director level. Maybe she needs to turn being disheartened into being focused on doing challenging things that she can talk about at interview. Things that set her apart. Technique really matters but so does what you're bringing to the table. Good luck to her.