Having to pay for work team building day

[Notanawayday]

Name changed for this.

I work part time for the NHS band 3 with colleagues who are band 6/7 so obviously better paid.

Every year we have no choice but to go on an afternoons team building day. Patient diaries are blocked out so my colleagues can go and admin have to attend too.

Last year it was bowling, year before pottery painting so not too expensive.

We have raised before about the trust we work for paying for us to go as it is on work time and we have no choice but to attend. Last year a couple of colleagues couldn’t afford the bowling had to sit there and watch.

There is no way our trust will pay for this forced team building day so there is no point even raising it again.

I was on annual leave last week when it was decided by our clinicians team lead that we will all be getting the train then a tube to Canary Wharf where we will be going to some sort of quiz event involving completing puzzles. Entry fee is £25 and then have to pay for food and drinks and of course train and fare tube which we can’t claim back. Whole cost will be around£60 and we will be there longer than our work finish time.

Im so fed up. I don’t want to spend money to attend a work team building day. A lot of the clinicians I work with are looking forward to it because it means half a day of not having to see patients and of course they earn way more than us lowly admin.

I think I will have to say I can’t afford to attend and will stay at work and actually do my job. I know already how it will pan out, constantly being pressurised to attend, being told I will have a good time and how I have to go to be part of the team etc etc

I’ve worked in further education and the civil service and never had to pay to attend a work team building day and yet the NHS managers think this is ok?!!!

If it's part and parcel of the job, then the employer pays for it. Employees should not have to pay out of their pocket to do something work related.

Team building/social development doesn't need to be off-site and it doesn't need to involve food and drink paid for by employees. If it benefits the employer, then the employer needs to pay expenses. If it's not benefitting the business, then why are you doing it in the first place?

You can enjoy also your job and working in your team without spending time on specific, non work related team building activities.

We had a huge staff turnover at one of my work places, it was costing me £20odd a month to give to people I hardly knew. Stopped giving in the end and encouraged people to only give in their teams or to their work friends - not every single person! After ten plus years, I got around £50 when I left and must paid out well over £500 in that time.

Stand firm OP - this is not your problem, it’s a culture issue that needs fixing!

And you say you are a manager?!

it really shouldn't need explained to you, but people often work part time to mitigate childcare costs etc.

managers do not get to dictate how staff spend their money. No staff member should feel they have to spend money they don't have (or simply don't want to spend) and no manager should expect them too.

and given op works for nhs - no socialising should be done in works time that reduces clinic times. That's disgraceful on two fronts. Waiting times for appointments are bad enough without realising you are waiting longer as staff are out on a jolly.

@Notanawaydayi never said I worked in the NHS?

How about it’s benefitting the employers in a way that most of the employees enjoy it also? Ie it seems there was a discussion and the outcome was that they decided to go to Canary Wharf. Surely employees should be allowed to contribute to an activity in order to get more out personally that they would otherwise have done so?

not all thinks that are part and parcel of a job get paid for by an employer. I know my employer doesn’t pay for my commuting costs, my professional membership costs, when I buy drinks etc for team members, the clothes I wear to work, my childcare for when I’m at work, for tradespeople to do things I would otherwise have been able to do myself if I weren’t travelling and / or so busy at work…. The list goes on. They’re all part and parcel of being employed noting that being employed comes at a cost.

I’m absolutely appalled at what is still going on in the public sector. I have worked in the equivalent of NHS in my country. We were a small close team and we did do collections for leaving etc but anyone you gave for you interacted with on a daily basis. The team were on a similar pay range. I retired 4 years ago but would be horrified if someone told me they had felt obliged to come when they couldn’t afford it.

Now for the OP I think things are different. The cost of living crisis is well known. I think she is going to have to say she has a “cost of living exemption”. This means that she cannot afford to go using the sort of terminology managers like. I mean £60 could buy my lunches for the whole month (I always prepared mine at home because I am fussy about what goes in my food).

Same thing applies to requests for donations. Say no! Say that you won’t expect anything when she leaves. That might be hard, but someone sometimes has to stick their head above the parapet.

Get the unions involved if you are part. Talk quietly to other members of the team. This year we are taking a cost of living exemption should be the mantra.

OR if they want an afternoon doing a quiz I think that ChatGPT will create one. They can all come into the office with a cup of tea and if they want they can bring a packet of crisps. Have a quiz.

@Notanawayday Stand up for the Band Threes. This nonsense does not seem to be doing much for team morale.

When I worked in the private sector and earned a high salary, there was never any expectation that we should pay for team days out. In fact I was invited out to a meal with some colleagues and nearly passed out with shock when my manager said we were meant to pay for ourselves (in the end I think she got the company cc out). I now happily meet my ex boss for dinner and we each pay our share - but I am not paying to spend time with people I don’t particularly like which happened to be some of those at the dinner.

I am in fact the rare bird that someone has described- working pt in the NHS on low wages, but have additional income from my voluntary redundancy payment. Still have no desire to spunk £60 to watch a bunch of highly paid clinicians throw a plastic axe in an overly noisy bar. In fact, it feels like one of the most tone deaf requests I have ever heard. I can’t believe @ExpectMore is trying to justify it.

Oh and on the set costs for attending work, I have noticed that most of my colleagues bring in pack lunches ( in the private sector we would be out to Pret or wherever most days) and if buying a coffee it will be a Greggs one. When you earn £100 a day, you can’t afford to spend £10 of it on lunch.

Colleagues are also cost conscious- when The Odyssey first came out there was a big discussion about the cost of IMAX and if it could be justified for a cinema night.

None of these, with the exception of professional fees (which you should at least get tax relief for) are obligations by your employer. You can car share for example, or have a family member provide childcare etc. they may be necessary expenses to allow you to work, but they are not (again with the exception of professional fees) part and parcel of your actual job.

but your employer shouldn't - and can't demand that you pay for a social event during working hours. They are not obligatory and if they are - employer pays or at the very least organises it at the work place so no travel and minimal cost (for the employer) and staff can leave at their normal finish time.

im not really sure why you can't see the difference. It makes me very grateful for my employer. They understand that not everyone will want to attend a social event in working time and allow anyone who doesn't want to attend the opportunity to work or take a days annual leave instead. Similarly these of us who don't work on the days they are generally held, have no obligation to attend. Generally they run on long past finishing time, but anyone is free to leave when they like.

what the op is describing doesn't promote team building - actually very much the opposite. Tone deaf managers not listening when staff say they can't afford something builds resentment.

You’re missing the point. I’m not saying the employer can demand they attend and pay etc…. I’m suggesting it’s unreasonable not to attend and pay, even if they’re not mandatory on the basis of it being something the team wants to do, is likely good for the working environment and individuals getting to know each other, and I accept that not everyone will like everything. That’s were compromise and accepting we live in a society that has to take into account everyone comes in. That doesn’t mean nobody does anything for fear of upsetting or other anyone, it means everyone needs to be a little accommodating. I also think that given that it seems to happen every year (and was presumably happening before OP joined), it’d be particularly poor form to get it cancelled or changed given it’s clearly an established practice that people enjoy, can plan for etc.

Yes I bet the other low band administrators would be devastated to lose their opportunity to spend a large percentage of their take home pay spending their free time in a bar miles away.

You are spectacularly missing the point. Team events should be picked and priced to accommodate the lowest paid member of the team. If the well paid clinicians genuinely want to play overpriced virtual darts in a central London location ( and I bet most of them don’t want to either) then this should be arranged separately from an affordable event for everyone, and by affordable I mean £10-20 max, with a voting button for the options.

When I worked in the private sector I had forgotten that we did have the occasional self paid team lunch out and it was flagged and signposted as that in advance. We would go to the all you can eat buffet which was £13.99 per person and the drinks tab for those who had soft drinks rather than just water was worked out separately so nobody paid over the odds. This was interspersed with in office bring your own lunch and things to share events. Maybe it was because a large part of our workforce were non drinkers for religious reasons, but it was fun to get together without having to spend much money, because even though I could afford it at the time my salary was earmarked for my own needs and wants.

I hated team building days, where we worked was already very sociable.

I worked in a University, it’s in financial trouble now. they wasted a huge amount on team building days. We had two full days a year one for admin staff and one for academics, technicians and admin staff. The admin one was always an activity. Lots of visiting of stately homes, we had a private tour once and then lunch, we claimed mileage to the places we visited. I got drunk on free wine many a time. We also had a post exam results free drinks reception with the entire year. It’s all stopped now but I assume other departments also did this, shocking really. We had a team building buffet once a month, that money at least went back to the University. I don’t work there anymore but still have friends that do. Loads of redundancies now.

I love your simplistic view. I do sometimes refuse. Then you are seen as not really a team player, but so be it. If you were to raise harassment allegations, managers just back peddle and say it's optional. No-one can force you to attend of course. But that's not the point is it?

@Teambuilding
I guess that is the reason it's all been scrapped for people going forward because previous departments took the p**s!
They should just cancel team building full stop like you say.

A large part of takehome pay? I might have been missing the point entirely as I thought it was £60 we were talking about. £60 = ~ 0.3% of a £20k salary which is hardly a “large percentage”.

Where are you getting large percentage from? Have I missed that it’s actually £600, or £6000? Apologies if I have

It's s large percentage of the money that's left when the monthly outgoings such as rent/mortgage, utility bills, travel costs are removed.

But you knew that didn't you?

And you're just playing at being deliberately dim.

It doesn’t matter what anyone argues expectmore is not going to change their mind.

Baffling really that someone chooses not to understand that low paid admin staff who are being forced to attend mandatory events during work time with higher paid clinical
staff can not afford to attend.

And at no point did I say I was going to get these events cancelled. At no point.

If you work in the NHS you know that clinical staff really are seen as more important than admin. Rightly or wrongly that’s how it is. In my team if they decide we’re spending the afternoon doing archery in a venue miles away then that’s what happens.

My admin colleagues and I have suggested many times about having a picnic, going to a free museum, going out for a cheap buffet lunch but nope we are told they are “competitive” and like to compete.

I’m sat in my car just about to start work and have my email ready to go, it basically says sorry I cannot afford to attend, please understand I can’t change this so please do not pressurise me to attend.

I know as soon as the clinical team lead reads it she will be straight at my desk trying to persuade me but I am going to repeat in loop I can’t afford it. There is no way the Trust will fund this so there is no way they can make me go.

I agree, you do need proof if you are going to bring a harassment complaint. Before I was a manager, I was that refuser, that not team player. BUT I was good, really good at my job and in the end that was what counted.

good for you!

When I say take home pay I mean post tax. I have said up thread that my daily take home as a Band 2 is £100 a day. My take home monthly salary is £1200, so £60 is 5% of that. A not inconsiderable amount for something OP doesn’t want to do. NB I am in Scotland where the pay bands are slightly higher so won’t be far off OPs numbers.

You sound very out of touch or well paid if £60 is a drop in the ocean for you. OP has suggested cheaper and to my mind more enjoyable options such as a museum but these have been rejected.

OP is there an age gap as well as a pay one ? Spending a fortune in a London bar playing fake games sounds very much like something that young people wanting to let off steam might want to do ?

Bloody hell, forced fun that you have to pay for and held IN WORK TIME? Fuck that!
Let the competitive clinicians go and do their archery and shit, doesn’t mean you all want to go!
I think it’s disgusting that it’s in work time too, considering the state of the NHS and waiting times etc.
I’d stick firmly to my guns on this one. They’re working colleagues, not friends.

I don’t work in the NHS and I know you didn’t say you’d get it cancelled, it’s just a potential inevitable consequence.

if there are “two tribes” (which sounds awful and as if some team building is needed!), why don’t you suggest doing alternate years: so one year admin organise it and decide on venue, the next year the clinicians organise it and decide on venue etc?

that way everyone gets what they want (and always what they don’t want…) and there’s even a degree of competitiveness between the years (in terms of who organises the best event!).

This would only work if the admins paid for it on their year and the clinicians on theirs.

Why can’t you just accept that people on low salaries simply can’t afford to go out on expensive jollies, no matter the infrequency, and more importantly shouldn’t be forced to.

Please don’t apologise in your email. You have nothing to say sorry for. Reword it to say something like “I will be unable to attend to due to finances. Thank you for your understanding. Regards.” And then if they come to you repeat I cannot attend due to finances and do not wish to discuss this further. Thank you for your understanding.

But absolutely do not apologise!
Good luck.

I have previously been a manager in the NHS and this seems completely out of order. We occasionally ran Team events- but any costs were always covered. I also agree with PP that you should seek out your ‘freedom to Speak up guardian’.
it all sounds like crass insensitivity on the part of the clinicians.