Lindsay clancy trial

[Widowwith2]

Has anyone else been following the lindsay clancy trial? What is everyone thinkin? I dont think she done it

And she supposedly heard the voice telling her to kill the children after PC had left, and the voice went away after she’d killed the last child. So a very short-lived voice - yet before that, LC was busy googling a restaurant farther away than they usually went and checking how long it took to get there. Why was she doing that if no voice was making her? It sounds like she was already planning to kill them.

There's been no suggestion by any expert that she has a personality disoder, and no evidence from anyone who knew her which would point to that either.

There's a chance she might not have heard a voice but just thinks she did.

She was obviously in a seriously bad place mentally, she took pills, she then made a serious suicide attempt, had a severe medical emergency,, she was unconscious, she coded, she was on sedatives and analgesics and in ICU, people can have nightmares and hallucinate and it's very possible that nightmares and memories and halluncinations could all bleed together. We know she also said she slashed the window screen with the knife, but the screen wasn't slashed.

So it may well have been that she was in a psychotic state before but did not hear a voice, but that that's how she remembers it now.

That’s because psychiatrists don’t tend to investigate whether people have personality disorders. Because they are hard to treat. They would rather prescribe medications.

What evidence is there that she had psychosis? None imo. She had poor mental health but not psychosis. It would be easy for her to pretend she could hear voices. Like Constance Fisher, she made an attempt at suicide but didn’t make sure she died like she made sure her children died.

Chris Watts tried to blame evil spirits for him murdering his pregnant wife and children. Nobody thought he had psychosis.

Well she's been evaluated by several people and been hospitalised for years and the hospital diagnosed her with bipolar II.

What evidence is there that she had psychosis? None imo

There often is no objective evidence that can be pointed to and it's retroactively diagnosed. The entire picture points more to her ending up in an acute psychotic state.

What evidence is there of a personality disorder?

Like Constance Fisher, she made an attempt at suicide but didn’t make sure she died like she made sure her children died.

She very nearly did die. If she hadn't paralysed herself and been able to try again I'm sure she would have.

Chris Watts tried to blame evil spirits for him murdering his pregnant wife and children. Nobody thought he had psychosis.

Chris Watts had a motive and he didn't try to kill himself after. He also didn't have a mental disease or defect that led up to it, I am sure that many men who kill their wives feel similar at the time, like some kind of temporary insanity coming over them but there's only a legal defence if it was a mental disease or defect that caused that to come over them.

He is basically saying at the time that he could not control himself, but if someone is out of control due to rage, wanting to start a new life etc. as I said a lot of men do feel like they had some temporary insanity come over them, and some of them probably are in an extremely abnormal mental state during a killing and when they're out of it they feel like that wasn't them and they weren't themselves, but if the state does not come from mental illness, and comes from other things like just wanting to be with your mistress then in some ways their internal experience might feel or look something like psychosis even though psychologically and legally it isn't.

Hospitalised for years? How did she manage to have 3 children then?

I believe Chris Watts has a cluster B disorder and I believe Lindsay Clancy also does. Females with these conditions present very differently to males. They often have suicidal ideation. There is a female psychopath who makes videos about her experiences that led to her diagnosis and being suicidal was one of them.

The whole thing also reminds me of Mackenzie Shirilla who certainly could have died, too. But she’s also clearly a narcissist.

Hospitalised for years since it happened, her diagnosis is still bipolar II.

I disagree but which one do you think she has and what evidence do you think points to it?

The cases are nothing alike.

One of the jurors has said that she wanted to vote not guilty by reason lf insanity because LC needs to get help because she decided she couldn’t go on and therefore wanted to kill her children. That’s not the same thing as having psychosis. Which is basically the prosecution’s case. She knew what she was doing.

Women with BPD can have suicidal ideation.

.... she decided she couldn’t go on and therefore wanted to kill her children. That’s not the same thing as having psychosis.

But it can be, that's the point that you and so many others are missing.

You could have mother A who is suicidal and wishes she could die and has thoughts of killing her children

And Mother B whose mental state has become so delusional that they believe the only option is to die, and that there is no hope and that there is no hope for her children either so she has to take them with her. If Mother Bs thoughts become so fixed on and she genuinely believes that this is the only way then her mental illness has taken on psychotic features.

Which is basically the prosecution’s case. She knew what she was doing.

The legal test is mental disease or defect and

A) unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of their actions.

OR

B) unable to conform their behaviour to the law.

So even if she knew what she was doing she is still not criminally responsible if her mental illness substantially deprived her of the ability to obey the law.

And?

So can women with bipolar II which is her diagnosis.

So are you saying now you think she has borderline personality disorder or narcissist or which one are you saying and what evidence points in that direction?

I have no idea which disorder she might have but it’s far more likely than her having psychosis imo. Because she had never been diagnosed with psychosis before and there are a lot of people who go around in life wearing a mask.

Having spent time in a psych ward myself, many moons ago, I can remember that the doctors are very intent on and concerned about verifying whether or not psychosis is present in a patient.

LC had not been evaluated as having psychosis before. Now, suddenly after she kills her children, she was hearing voices. How convenient.

She went up and down the stairs to the basement and methodically killed all of her children, whilst also talking to her husband on the phone. She got him out of the house so that she would be able to do this, undisturbed.

There are a lot of people who go around in life wearing a mask. They play a role of this ideal person but that isn’t who they really are and I believe that to be the case, here. I am allowed to have that opinion - I’m not on the jury.

When you say that, from your experience of being in a psych ward yourself, that "doctors are very intent on and concerned about verifying whether or not psychosis is present in a patient", does this not suggest that it wasn't that easy to determine even with someone under 24 hour care/supervision? I presume they made a judgment in every case that required it if not all of them but it does sound like it took a lot of effort and observation even with round the clock access to in-patients?

I haven't kept up with the full trial but read that LC did have an in-patient stint in 2022. But she may not have been psychotic then. It sounds like she is alleging that this came on later as a result of being overmedicated, which is something that has been known to happen.

Sorry, just read that she wasn't admitted when she tried to check in for inpatient care so it doesn't sound like there was much opportunity to assess her for signs of psychosis.

Ah, but she did have an inpatient stay nearer the times of the murders. Sorry for being so uninformed. It's such a hard case it's hard to read about it extensively and yet I want to understand more about psychosis as I have a friend who I believe may be experiencing this (she has a diagnosis but won't share it).

Or she might not have been psychotic at all. The voice could be made up, or it could just be her own internal voice/thoughts. I thought the defence was claiming she had a very brief episode of psychosis - ie when she killed the children? She’d had a normal day beforehand apparently.

i don’t doubt she was mentally unhealthy, exhausted and stressed, but I do doubt she was psychotic and had no idea what she was doing was wrong.

Yes, the amount of medication she was prescribed is almost certainly what has introduced reasonable doubt. Although she wasn’t taking it all at the same time. I can see why there is reasonable doubt. I just don’t personally believe that she wasn’t responsible for her actions because my observations of the sort of things she would do and say strike me as someone who was obsessive and controlling about her children, not because she loved them but because she saw them as her possessions - not people with their own rights.

She had depression and anxiety when she was at university . She had problems with her mental health before she had children and it worsened with each child she birthed and yet she was planning on having a fourth!

I agree.

You could have mother A who is suicidal and wishes she could die and has thoughts of killing her children. And Mother B whose mental state has become so delusional that they believe the only option is to die, and that there is no hope and that there is no hope for her children either so she has to take them with her. If Mother Bs thoughts become so fixed on and she genuinely believes that this is the only way then her mental illness has taken on psychotic features

People kill themselves because they think it’s the only option - however they don’t all have psychosis! In fact, I’d guess very few of them do. They might be depressed, worn down by circumstances, etc etc, such that they feel that’s their only/best option, but they’re certainly not psychotic.

As for killing her children, that doesn’t make her psychotic either. Perhaps she thought she wanted to be with them in death, perhaps she’d just reached the end of her tether, perhaps she thought she was failing as a mother and so she’d ’save them’ by removing them from the situation? There are plenty of possible reasons.

To add to my post above, someone close to me committed suicide. They left a note, detailing their reasons. But, any outside observer would have told them they didn’t have to do that, that there were other options. However, for them they think suicide is the only option. That does not make them delusional They’re making a bad choice at a time of extreme stress.

B) unable to conform their behaviour to the law.

Yet she showed that she was able to conform to the law. She could resist the urge to kill the kids all the time people were around. She actually arranged for her husband to go out (further than their normal restaurant and she googled the journey time to see how much time she had.) She chose the moment. The proves she could conform when she chose to.

Irresistible urge or a urge that wasn't resisted? She was perfectly able to resist it, as the timing demonstrates.

We should also remember that the law is Massachusetts fairly unusual in putting the burden of proof for sanity on the state. Elsewhere it's an affirmative defence with the burden on the defence. If she'd committed this crime in the UK, the rest of America or most of Europe she'd be convicted. The only reason her guilt is up for debate is the location she committed the crime.

I think she had BPD 2 and was extremely suicidal with some psychotic features from the BPD but was aware of what she was doing and in fact planned to kill herself and all the children and due to her Catholic faith believed she and the kids would then be 'happy' in heaven. So she wasn't of sound mind no, but she wasn't criminally insane either. I think she should be in prison for what she did.

From what I've seen and read those who have experience with pyschosis (either personally or through a family member/friend) use this as an argument as to why they're better qualified to judge the LC case.

However, just as those who have lost a loved one are easily fooled by frauds such as psychic mediums, could it be this experience makes them less qualified as they're emotionally driven into a default 'believe the defence' position that is difficult to shake?

Having said that those who don't believe LC defence appear to also be emotionally driven by the horror of the crime and need for LC to be punished.

A very difficult case to trial as I feel very few people have a true impartial starting position.