Dolly Parton apparently misguided on trans issues

Most of the comments are variations on “does it matter?”, but I guess you see what you want.

There was literally an entire thread. It's the whole reason for this thread.

I'm thrilled by all the good that DP did. I'm also thrilled by the good that JKR has done and continues to do. Both are heroes.

There was an entire thread here as in “The brain rot here is quite something”? Or is it just a general ‘here’? As in Mumsnet in general? (Which begs the question of why you’ve signed up to it).

Dolly did immense good, JKR has done some good. Dolly, as far as I can tell, didn't ever put a foot wrong. JKR on the other hand...

Hedonist!

Guilty as charged @quantumbutterfly!

I have to say that if your final judgment on this amazing woman is based on how she felt about toilets, you’re incredibly misguided

Sounds like she knew trans people in real life so she was able to make an informed decision based on her experiences. Dolly was inclusive and loving, with a generous and non judgemental heart. So quick witted and clever too.

Do you think that none of the GC feminists on MN have ever met a trans person? 🤔 I think everyone has met a trans person at this point; there’s loads more of them than there used to be. Lots of MNers have teenage and young adult children- of course most of us have met people with trans identities!

@Waitingfordoggo ”met” is not “know.”

I have a feeling that "know" is another one of your irregular verbs. One "knows" lovely gentle trans identifying people with whom one feels an instant natural comfort and rapport, but one has only "met" difficult, unpleasant, violent or abusive ones.

I have met many men in my life, known a lot of them, liked most of them and loved a few of them. I do not however conclude from this that all men are wonderful, nor that the existence of nice men means there is no need for single sex woman-only provision ever.

I'm not sure why the logic above, which everyone accepts when it comes to men, is somehow supposed to not apply to those men who happen to identify as women?

*All use of "men" and "women" above refer to the original sex-based meaning, obviously

This
I could know 20 perfectly nice unthreatening, gentle, kind trans identified men. It still wouldn't preclude the possibility that there are 20 or 30 or 100 others who are unpleasant, dangerous, cruel and vicious.

That's how humans work. And we KNOW a % are sex offenders. We KNOW many of them hate women while fetishising womanhood. They aren't exactly hiding it.

And frankly, we often THINK we know someone - until they do something unspeakable and we realise we never really did.

Mental gymnastics aren't required. Dolly never spoke at length on the topic, so no one can really say that she had deep-dived into it, understood both sides, and chose gender ideology. You want to believe that, but you're just projecting it onto her attempts to be kind.

Dolly was in the last years of her life. She had health struggles to contend with. It's not condescending to assume "poor, silly old Dolly" just didn't have the time or energy to get into it. The reality is that she was 80 years old and had had more immediate concerns. She couldn't give the trans debate the attention it required. If there was an 80 year old woman in my life who was in and out of hospital and still trying to keep working, I would not expect her to also be fully informed on the trans debate. That's insane.

All we can do is try to work out how she might have come down on the issue, based on her past actions and beliefs. I don't believe she would have been a ra-ra TRA, if she saw what the ideology was doing to women. That's not mental gymnastics, it's an objective assessment of her character. You seem to think that because Dolly was compassionate to trans people, she would have written off the concerns of women the way you do. I'm not convinced.

By the way, you don't have to have a "superior intellect" to question gender identity. All you have to do is be shown the stories of the people who have been hurt by it. You listen to them and allow yourself to think "Is this wrong?" You listen to the totally illogical arguments of the TRAs and allow yourself to think, "Does this actually make sense, though?" That's it. They're pretty simple thoughts that don't require MENSA levels of genius. You just have to give yourself permission to use your own brain, which most people are terrified to do, because there's a societal cost to admitting this is all harmful bullshit.

Of course, if you're someone who transitioned, or transitioned your own child, the cognitive dissonance is what's terrifying. Whether you believe me or not, I really do pity those people. That's a horrendous thing to live with and have to try and outrun mentally for the rest of your life.

"I know a few trans people and they're nice, but I've never spoken to a terf" is not an informed decision. It's a biased one, based on personal feelings and limited information.

JK Rowling also knows and loves trans people in real life, but her informed decision on the issue turned out rather different, once she actually researched it.

Well, some of us are/ were married to TIMs. You can’t know someone better than that. We are gender critical because we know them all too well.

Not just met, she knew them well. I've met trans people but I don't know any.

Dolly's 2023 answer - by which time most people had started to realise that the issue was a lot more complicated than "I just need to pee!" so she was careful not to state any support for puberty blockers, which is what the law are was responding to was about - isn't that different from JK Rowling's position of:

"Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security."

Rowling adds:
"But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?"

Which I suspect Dolly would have agreed with but, in this day and age, it's considered controversial to state such a simple and common sense position and Dolly preferred to avoid being dragged into controversies so she wouldn't have said anything like that publicly, even if she believed it.

Rowling has a very good transsexual friend. Dolly also said, in the same breath as she said she knew trans people that she also knew alcoholics and drug addicts.

This idea that if you know transpeople you’d support efforts to dismantle women’s single sex rights is such an odd take.

I know transpeople of both sexes. Knowing them makes it even more obvious to me that no human can ever change sex and women’s sex based rights need to be upheld.

Hope that helps.

Dolly's stance was to love everyone and have faith in the Lord. She was an amazing woman and the world was a better place with her in it.

I don't believe in her God and I disagree with total trans inclusion on the basis of gender rather than sex. That doesn't stop my admiration and love of an incredible talent and a compassionate human being.

Does anyone know what Queen Victoria’s view on trans people was? I think we need to know. Or are we just assuming that because she was a fan of colonisation she’d be a TRA?

I think she was trying to be diplomatic and not give any real view on the matter. She had a great way of doing this in interviews

I note Leo Sayer doesn't seem to have made a statement.