Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thoughts on this tweet?

95 replies

walkthedino · Yesterday 15:24

I saw the below tweet today and agreed with a lot of it. I wondered what people on this forum thought.

I have copied and pasted so the post doesn’t have to wait for a screenshot to be approved:

My trans positions are VERY CONTROVERSIAL because they are so dead moderate they make both cocaine-fueled extremes angry.

✅ Yes, most children are being overmedicalized. But rare true trans children deserve help or they psychologically shatter
✅ No, trans women do not belong in professional sports. But it’s hateful to call them men.
✅ Trans women are not automatically women. But with hard work and medical intervention, most of us can have fulfilling lives where people perceive us as women.
✅ Self-ID must end. Women’s feelings and safety matter, so if you cannot use the ladies non-disruptively - don’t.
✅ If you can’t understand why women should never see a penis in a locker room, you’re mentally still a man.
✅ We need research to figure out what is happening with this explosion of non-binary identities. They are not trans, and it’s medical malpractice to give them transsexual healthcare.
✅ You have to do the work to be percieved as a woman. Far left politics cannot do this work for you.

I promise you. The overwhelming majority of the public agrees with all of this. If trans people will go back to the non-insane positions of ten years ago, things will get better.

OP posts:
Datun · Yesterday 17:08

murasaki · Yesterday 17:03

Sadly it is very easy to believe!

But he's positing a pass re non pass divide which reddit doesn't buy due to feelz. And he's a man whichever way you cut it or whatever you cut.

Edited

Well I wouldn't mind, but he absolutely doesn't pass.

That doesn't mean that if he did it would be any different, of course.

But the delusion in these people is shocking

6ate9 · Yesterday 17:09

milkeyway · Yesterday 16:59

Ahrgh yes I didn’t read it properly. Accurate but maybe kinder to just say trans women? I guess I don’t wholly disagree with the statement.

I don’t think the word woman should be used in the context of a man. So instead of ‘trans woman’, use trans-identified male.

walkthedino · Yesterday 17:11

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 16:50

@walkthedino

Great talking points!

Can you explain why you agree with them?

Have you thought about it properly, or is this more a vibe thing that they feel good and fair to you, and you have not yet thought about what they actually mean in the real world?

Either way, here's a few questions I'd like to get your thoughts on that are very relevant to your post. These to me are such fundamental questions and the answers can change so much that I do really need to understand where you are coming from before I reply more.

What do you think the differences are between men and women, and how do these differences relate (or not!) to the reasons we have separate sports, prisons, toilets and so on?

Do you think the legal limitations placed on women before the mid twnetieth century in the West, and in countreis like Afghanistan today, stopped trans women coming out as women because they would have lost male privileges?

Do you think "true" trans people are people who are 100% their actual biological sex same as everyone else but have a genuine belief they are mentally tho other sex, or do you believe they actually are in some real way mentally more like the opposite sex than others of their biological sex? If so, what so you think this means for other people of that sex (the ones you might call "cis") to be told trans people are proof that their mental identities are limited by their sex?

Even if sex is mental rather than physical and we have somehow missed this for all of human hitsory, does that not just mean that we need to recognose a new facet of being human alongside the fact of biological sex rather than reptend biological sex doesn't exist (or exists but has fewer consequences than this mental gender thing)?

I'd love to discuss your points but these to me are such fundamental questions and the answers can really change how I interpret your post, so I really need to understand where you are coming from before I reply more.

Thanks!

Hello! @FlirtsWithRhinos

Just to answer some people’s comments about being new to Mumsnet, I have been on here a while under a different name where I’ve made a lot of comments re my personal life. I felt that this forum was for a healthy discussion but didn’t want to risk my personal life being involved (I.e. that it’s obvious what field I work in or the area I live!). I am however new to this specific forum as a poster (I have only read previous threads before and not got involved).

to me they seem like a moderate take on what can sometimes be two extremes in viewpoints. I wouldn’t say I wholly agree with it (I.e. the idea that a trans person needs to try really hard to be valid seems unfair) but I think there is a medium ground to be had.

I’d personally say that I agree a person cannot change biological sex, but they can change their perceived gender identity. Yes, biologically someone will retain their chromosomes etc, but they can live as the opposite gender and feel happier that way (and I’d apply that sentiment to trans men and women). I personally view a trans person as an almost separate class in a way, as in they clearly don’t feel they’re a woman so live as a man but biologically remain a woman, this is almost a third option. I don’t know if I explained that well!

My point being with that, that trans people deserve to live their lives in freedom and comfort (obviously) as long as it doesn’t impact on others. Which to be clear is the same view I’d take with any person or gender etc. Allowing trans people to compete in single gender sports does impact on these people, so I don’t agree with this.

I hope this answers some of your questions and I’m happy to go over it more. I’m sure I’ve missed some points (I’m on mobile so it makes it hard to read once starting a reply!) so let me know.

I also don’t think I’m god and I know everything - my views change over time and there’s always things I can agree or disagree with people on! I just felt like the tweet was a way to a medium ground. Also, for the record, it seems the person who made the tweet has a bit of a reputation but I have no clue who they are or if they are apparently controversial!

OP posts:
Pingponghavoc · Yesterday 17:12

Self-ID must end.

Its going to be decided on a lottery or something?

Its all self id, no one goes to the doctors with a headache and gets an unexpected diagnosis of being trans.

Trans is whatever an individual wants it to be.

walkthedino · Yesterday 17:12

AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 17:06

So what is your view?

Sorry, my point was that I agree with most of the points made, but that the final line along the lines of “this is what nearly everyone thinks” wasn’t my thoughts it was still part of the tweet!

OP posts:
TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Yesterday 17:14

Yes, yes, blah, blah, blah the only thing of interest was buried in the middle

We need research to figure out what is happening with this explosion of non-binary identities. They are not trans, and it’s medical malpractice to give them transsexual healthcare.
😂😂😂

It seems to me a TIM has looked over his shoulder and seen what's coming up behind, they're so focused on women fighting to regain their right's, they not spotted the Queer juggernaut barrelling down on them.
The LGB are already in the process of kicking them out of their nest into the Q's nest.

Who's the cuckoo now then T's. 😂

heathspeedwell · Yesterday 17:14

I think it may have been the case a few years ago that most women were happy to share spaces with post-operative transwomen. But not any more.

Survey after survey shows that the vast majority of women want single sex spaces.

I'm sure that the 3% or so of transwomen who have had surgery to invert their penis feel sad about this. But if knowing they will never be allowed in our spaces discourages men from having this risky procedure in future then that can only be a good thing.

murasaki · Yesterday 17:17

They may well change what they perceive as their gender identity, but they can't rely on other people perceiving it the same way, and shouldn't do. We can tell. And that has nothing to do with sexed things (not gender as you said, OP) like sports, hospital wards, toilets changing rooms etc.

rubyslippers · Yesterday 17:17

walkthedino · Yesterday 17:11

Hello! @FlirtsWithRhinos

Just to answer some people’s comments about being new to Mumsnet, I have been on here a while under a different name where I’ve made a lot of comments re my personal life. I felt that this forum was for a healthy discussion but didn’t want to risk my personal life being involved (I.e. that it’s obvious what field I work in or the area I live!). I am however new to this specific forum as a poster (I have only read previous threads before and not got involved).

to me they seem like a moderate take on what can sometimes be two extremes in viewpoints. I wouldn’t say I wholly agree with it (I.e. the idea that a trans person needs to try really hard to be valid seems unfair) but I think there is a medium ground to be had.

I’d personally say that I agree a person cannot change biological sex, but they can change their perceived gender identity. Yes, biologically someone will retain their chromosomes etc, but they can live as the opposite gender and feel happier that way (and I’d apply that sentiment to trans men and women). I personally view a trans person as an almost separate class in a way, as in they clearly don’t feel they’re a woman so live as a man but biologically remain a woman, this is almost a third option. I don’t know if I explained that well!

My point being with that, that trans people deserve to live their lives in freedom and comfort (obviously) as long as it doesn’t impact on others. Which to be clear is the same view I’d take with any person or gender etc. Allowing trans people to compete in single gender sports does impact on these people, so I don’t agree with this.

I hope this answers some of your questions and I’m happy to go over it more. I’m sure I’ve missed some points (I’m on mobile so it makes it hard to read once starting a reply!) so let me know.

I also don’t think I’m god and I know everything - my views change over time and there’s always things I can agree or disagree with people on! I just felt like the tweet was a way to a medium ground. Also, for the record, it seems the person who made the tweet has a bit of a reputation but I have no clue who they are or if they are apparently controversial!

There’s no such thing as gender identity - that’s the issue
what does living as a woman mean ?!
wear your hair long and like pink?
woman is not a feeling
you can’t identify out of womanhood
it’s such a luxury belief - why haven’t all these trans women gone to live in Afghanistan

AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 17:22

walkthedino · Yesterday 17:12

Sorry, my point was that I agree with most of the points made, but that the final line along the lines of “this is what nearly everyone thinks” wasn’t my thoughts it was still part of the tweet!

'I agree with most of the points made' is a little bit vague. Are you willing to take the tweet point by point and tell us whether you agree or disagree with each point and give reasons why?

Hoardasurass · Yesterday 17:40

walkthedino · Yesterday 17:11

Hello! @FlirtsWithRhinos

Just to answer some people’s comments about being new to Mumsnet, I have been on here a while under a different name where I’ve made a lot of comments re my personal life. I felt that this forum was for a healthy discussion but didn’t want to risk my personal life being involved (I.e. that it’s obvious what field I work in or the area I live!). I am however new to this specific forum as a poster (I have only read previous threads before and not got involved).

to me they seem like a moderate take on what can sometimes be two extremes in viewpoints. I wouldn’t say I wholly agree with it (I.e. the idea that a trans person needs to try really hard to be valid seems unfair) but I think there is a medium ground to be had.

I’d personally say that I agree a person cannot change biological sex, but they can change their perceived gender identity. Yes, biologically someone will retain their chromosomes etc, but they can live as the opposite gender and feel happier that way (and I’d apply that sentiment to trans men and women). I personally view a trans person as an almost separate class in a way, as in they clearly don’t feel they’re a woman so live as a man but biologically remain a woman, this is almost a third option. I don’t know if I explained that well!

My point being with that, that trans people deserve to live their lives in freedom and comfort (obviously) as long as it doesn’t impact on others. Which to be clear is the same view I’d take with any person or gender etc. Allowing trans people to compete in single gender sports does impact on these people, so I don’t agree with this.

I hope this answers some of your questions and I’m happy to go over it more. I’m sure I’ve missed some points (I’m on mobile so it makes it hard to read once starting a reply!) so let me know.

I also don’t think I’m god and I know everything - my views change over time and there’s always things I can agree or disagree with people on! I just felt like the tweet was a way to a medium ground. Also, for the record, it seems the person who made the tweet has a bit of a reputation but I have no clue who they are or if they are apparently controversial!

Ok but why insult us by calling us cocaine fulled extremists?
Also your position is that gender identities exist whereas gc people don't believe that anyone has a gender identity (gendered soul).
So I ask you what is living as the opposite gender?
How do I know if im womaning correctly?
There is no 3rd sex or type of people we are all male or female and that can never be changed.
How can transpeople live their lives in comfort and freedom without compelling others to partake in their fantasy ?

Unfortunately there is no compromise between gender identity ideology and sex realism because one is based on lies and the removal of the rights of others, whilst the other is based on facts and upholding the rights and language of women, girls and same sex oriented people

backformoreofthesame · Yesterday 17:44

Isn’t the phrase “did you mean to be so rude?”

Wishesandhorses · Yesterday 17:59

Yes, most children are being overmedicalized. But rare true trans children deserve help or they psychologically shatter

ANY child in distress deserves high quality help and support. There are no categories of children more special and entitled than others. That help should never harm a healthy body or mind, involve sterilisation, removal of sexual or any other function, or any intervention that has a permanent lifetime impact the child cannot consent to. That help should also never be experimental or heavily steered by adults with personal political agendas where the child and the child's interests are coming a very low second.

This 'the whole world agrees with me cos I say so' is getting very tedious. It's the kind of nonsense no one gets away with beyond a primary school playground without looking an absolute tit. In adults, it's just worrying.

Igmum · Yesterday 17:59

So are we not taking cocaine any more?

The problem is OP that we have been here before and we know that letting one TW who wants to pee/is really really nice/has worked so hard/would be so sad into the women’s toilets is the thin end of the wedge.

We live in a world where middle aged women are told they must strip in front of men if they want to keep their jobs and punished if they don’t do it enthusiastically enough; where violent rapists housed in women’s prisons violently rape and terrorise; where young lesbians are told they must have sex with TW and learn to love girl dick.

Do you seriously seriously want to see more of that @walkthedino?

helderste · Yesterday 17:59

walkthedino · Yesterday 17:11

Hello! @FlirtsWithRhinos

Just to answer some people’s comments about being new to Mumsnet, I have been on here a while under a different name where I’ve made a lot of comments re my personal life. I felt that this forum was for a healthy discussion but didn’t want to risk my personal life being involved (I.e. that it’s obvious what field I work in or the area I live!). I am however new to this specific forum as a poster (I have only read previous threads before and not got involved).

to me they seem like a moderate take on what can sometimes be two extremes in viewpoints. I wouldn’t say I wholly agree with it (I.e. the idea that a trans person needs to try really hard to be valid seems unfair) but I think there is a medium ground to be had.

I’d personally say that I agree a person cannot change biological sex, but they can change their perceived gender identity. Yes, biologically someone will retain their chromosomes etc, but they can live as the opposite gender and feel happier that way (and I’d apply that sentiment to trans men and women). I personally view a trans person as an almost separate class in a way, as in they clearly don’t feel they’re a woman so live as a man but biologically remain a woman, this is almost a third option. I don’t know if I explained that well!

My point being with that, that trans people deserve to live their lives in freedom and comfort (obviously) as long as it doesn’t impact on others. Which to be clear is the same view I’d take with any person or gender etc. Allowing trans people to compete in single gender sports does impact on these people, so I don’t agree with this.

I hope this answers some of your questions and I’m happy to go over it more. I’m sure I’ve missed some points (I’m on mobile so it makes it hard to read once starting a reply!) so let me know.

I also don’t think I’m god and I know everything - my views change over time and there’s always things I can agree or disagree with people on! I just felt like the tweet was a way to a medium ground. Also, for the record, it seems the person who made the tweet has a bit of a reputation but I have no clue who they are or if they are apparently controversial!

for the record, it seems the person who made the tweet has a bit of a reputation but I have no clue who they are or if they are apparently controversial!

Just a massive unfortunate coincidence then that your first post with this username tries to present a tweet from him as ‘moderate’. Amazingly bad luck really because it makes you look totally disingenuous.

Datun · Yesterday 18:09

walkthedino · Yesterday 17:11

Hello! @FlirtsWithRhinos

Just to answer some people’s comments about being new to Mumsnet, I have been on here a while under a different name where I’ve made a lot of comments re my personal life. I felt that this forum was for a healthy discussion but didn’t want to risk my personal life being involved (I.e. that it’s obvious what field I work in or the area I live!). I am however new to this specific forum as a poster (I have only read previous threads before and not got involved).

to me they seem like a moderate take on what can sometimes be two extremes in viewpoints. I wouldn’t say I wholly agree with it (I.e. the idea that a trans person needs to try really hard to be valid seems unfair) but I think there is a medium ground to be had.

I’d personally say that I agree a person cannot change biological sex, but they can change their perceived gender identity. Yes, biologically someone will retain their chromosomes etc, but they can live as the opposite gender and feel happier that way (and I’d apply that sentiment to trans men and women). I personally view a trans person as an almost separate class in a way, as in they clearly don’t feel they’re a woman so live as a man but biologically remain a woman, this is almost a third option. I don’t know if I explained that well!

My point being with that, that trans people deserve to live their lives in freedom and comfort (obviously) as long as it doesn’t impact on others. Which to be clear is the same view I’d take with any person or gender etc. Allowing trans people to compete in single gender sports does impact on these people, so I don’t agree with this.

I hope this answers some of your questions and I’m happy to go over it more. I’m sure I’ve missed some points (I’m on mobile so it makes it hard to read once starting a reply!) so let me know.

I also don’t think I’m god and I know everything - my views change over time and there’s always things I can agree or disagree with people on! I just felt like the tweet was a way to a medium ground. Also, for the record, it seems the person who made the tweet has a bit of a reputation but I have no clue who they are or if they are apparently controversial!

There's a bit of a collision going on here. You view trans people as a separate cohort that should have rights, and needs etc.

Whereas the feminist take on it is there are men and women who don't want to be men and women for all sorts of reasons, but they're mostly sexist or homophobic. Or a result of trauma. Or, very much latterly, and much more significantly, fetishistic.

So the feminist take is to address the problem. Whereas your solution is to address the symptom and ignore the problem.

Therefore, there is no moderate take. Feminists will not have a moderate take on how to accommodate sexism, or homophobia, or a man's fetish.

And that's before we can get started on the additional concept of erasing sex linguistically, legally and politically.

In order to accommodate the aforesaid sexism, homophobia, fetish and let's face it, delusion.

This absolutely is a zero sum game.

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 18:13

What, from Brianna 'I'm so moderate me! Let me do what I like but not those other men!' Wu?

This dude?

Sal Grover was right when she described him as Dylan Mulvanay but with less jazz hands.

Thoughts on this tweet?
BernardBlacksMolluscs · Yesterday 18:15

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 18:13

What, from Brianna 'I'm so moderate me! Let me do what I like but not those other men!' Wu?

This dude?

Sal Grover was right when she described him as Dylan Mulvanay but with less jazz hands.

He sounds lovely

just the kind of chap I want to be in close quarters with when I’m vulnerable or partially dressed

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 18:18

He's absolutely horrendous.

Thoughts on this tweet?
IwantToRetire · Yesterday 18:18

Have to say I am not really interested in yet another online comment being thought worth a thread of FWR as opposed to actual IRL events, etc.!

But just out of interest as to why yet another random online presence is thought worthy of a FWR thread have found links to the actual statements and the responses to give it some context in terms of ongoing pronouncements!

https://www.facebook.com/briannaspacekat/

https://www.threads.com/@briannawusays

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 18:30

I think most of you are a lot more patient than I am, and I wasn't even going to engage on this one. However...

The backtracking, even online, even from one person with a suspect history of posting online, is an interesting development. Somebody has clearly seen the writing on the wall and is possibly beginning to feel a looming desperation. They grabbed too much all at once, and they know it.

I have lost the ability to even care what anyone who believes that they have "changed sex" or "acquired a different gender" says anymore. As far as I'm concerned, it's all lies, and I don't think they even have the ability anymore to tell the truth.

So, whatever it is they want, my answer is no. We gave them the benefit of the doubt 15-20 years ago, and they almost took the whole shebang. So, no, I don't care. They can have what they are entitled to have under the law, but no more. No sympathy. No empathy. No more time to figure things out. No compromises. No understanding. None of our spaces. None of our language. And certainly no more of our children.

No dolls. No men at all. None. I don't care how panicked or sad they feel. Just no.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · Yesterday 18:34

Well yes. A man who thinks he can buy his way to being a woman gives you a fairly good idea about his views on women

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 18:38

And everything that @Datun said
Datun · Today 16:53

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 18:39

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 18:30

I think most of you are a lot more patient than I am, and I wasn't even going to engage on this one. However...

The backtracking, even online, even from one person with a suspect history of posting online, is an interesting development. Somebody has clearly seen the writing on the wall and is possibly beginning to feel a looming desperation. They grabbed too much all at once, and they know it.

I have lost the ability to even care what anyone who believes that they have "changed sex" or "acquired a different gender" says anymore. As far as I'm concerned, it's all lies, and I don't think they even have the ability anymore to tell the truth.

So, whatever it is they want, my answer is no. We gave them the benefit of the doubt 15-20 years ago, and they almost took the whole shebang. So, no, I don't care. They can have what they are entitled to have under the law, but no more. No sympathy. No empathy. No more time to figure things out. No compromises. No understanding. None of our spaces. None of our language. And certainly no more of our children.

No dolls. No men at all. None. I don't care how panicked or sad they feel. Just no.

Yes to all of this.

And as for the 'true trans/moderate voices/the old school ones weren't a problem' appeals - those 'old school' men were invading female single sex spaces exactly the same as the current ones are, they were just less vocal about it. So no, the 'moderate' ones don't get an all access pass because they don't (openly) hand out violent threats to women.

dinodart · Yesterday 18:41

How can it be hateful to call a man, a man...

And what exactly is "true trans", there is only a spectrum of gender dysphoria, and a lot it right tho is just social contagion

Swipe left for the next trending thread