Lesbians- how has the GC debate affected your social spaces?

I would expect it not to depend on a physical location so much as the people in it at the time. A venue is a GC space if and while it contains GC people. There are virtual GC spaces, many of which have to be gatekept and / or hidden.

I am straight but highly amused by this entire post. Well done.

I'm even more confused than before, and still don't know if I'm 'on the fence' about something! I still am not entirely clear why the OP is asking this, but that's fine. I'll lurk for a while, but I don't think this 'discussion' is going anywhere useful. I've answered what I thought I could answer.

Me too. Im off to join the Campaign for Plain English!

Answering the headline question, because that is almost comprehensible - the Gender Critical debate, as you put it, has not affected my social spaces at all. Gender Ideology, or trans activism, call it what you will, on the other hand, has played a major role in destroying them

I didn't originally bother with this thread, but on the other hand found the OP perfectly clear.

Not sure why some are going on and on about it.

Using the phrase GC space, ie biological women many not be common by not an issue.

As to whether there are lesbians who are full on TRAs you will find that at Pride events and most publicly advertised "lesbian" events. ie men who claim to not only be women but lesbian women will be there.

What is clear from the number of threads about this not only individual women's experience but women trying to organise "GC" lesbian events they are endlessly attacked, or denied acess to venues.

If MN had a better search function it would be easy to find all these threads. Some of which have been really moving personal stories of lesbians who no longer feel there is any social space for them.

These are some recent threads:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5541262-5541262-a-french-lesbian-perspective-on-sex-based-boundaries-and-lesbian-spaces

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5547292-i-used-to-get-beaten-up-by-queer-bashers-now-i-get-threatened-by-people-calling-themselves-queer

I'd assume GC spaces means spaces where a woman means a biological female (not TW).

I'd assume 'on the fence' relates to whether men can be lesbians.

It doesn't seem that complicated?

This thread from 7(!) years ago is really moving.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3621239-Being-a-homosexual-female-in-a-community-of-queer-people-transbians-and-penis-inclusionary-lesbians

And was shared widely.

GC is not the same as being TERF!!!

You mean a women’s toilet for example? Thats not a GC space . Biological women who support the TWAW argument would use those too surely? I’m not “ going on” about it. I’m genuinely confused as to what a GC space is. Unless it’s a physical or virtual support group for people to discuss GC theory?

Just because we see the thread for what it is, doesn't mean we can't play along sometimes. 😉

I care because I care about all women. It seems to me that lesbian spaces have been colonised by Trans identified Men (TiMs) and that this is harmful to lesbians. Thus, I am as interested in removing TiMs from lesbian spaces as I am about same sex spaces. Why should one woman not care for others?

Yes, I thought I had explained my reasons for querying the OP on some of this, but not as clearly as I had thought, which, given the lack of input from the OP at the time, is not surprising. A further small amoun of input much later from the OP hasn't really clarified things enough for me, but it really doesn't matter. I suspect many people on this thread are completely missing the real point of the thread, but it's been done to death now. Just thought I'd play along for a while, but am done now.

I think the real point of this thread is that men can be lesbians tbh. But I may be wrong. Flying a kite here.

I for one am sick of seeing trans women on lesbian dating apps

Lesbians were dealing with this shit a lot earlier than straight women.

I read an article on the “cotton ceiling (vomit) in 2006/2007

I lived in Brighton at the beginning of the Terf Wars and lesbians lost all their spaces. I'll repeat that ALL their spaces Clubs pubs walking groups all went underground or had to accept if not actively embrace men. If you were a late blooming lesbian or wanted to explore bisexuality dating apps and speed dating events and meet ups became Impossible. I'm fairly sure the OP has nefarious intentions and the well meaning responses are 100% an echo of how lesbians and lesbians spaces initially responded.

I was lucky enough to come out in the late 90s when there was still a whole big lesbian community & blokes claiming to be lesbians were still seen as sexist twats who thought they were funny.

To answer the question as the OP intended, yes spaces have disappeared. Am I surprised? No, not particularly. Are we still organising? Yes but underground and GC is a useful password into more lesbian only spaces.

There was a lovely time between about 2004 and 2014 when it was not problematic to be a vanilla run of the mill lesbian. I just went on with my life with my wife and kids entirely accepted. Then queer happened and it became trendy which was a disaster socially for me. We moved so needed to create new social groups and finding other like-minded women got harder.

Now I do have to do some extra due diligence on social groups. I tend to steer clear of queer groups. Even with lesbian I have to do a bit of research.

The interesting side effect of this is the underground aspect which has the weird upside of making lesbian a bit cool again. I used to read about the underground social groups that met in the 1950s in Lilian Faderman’s books about lesbian history with a sort of nostalgic longing. Now I get to participate and organise them. It takes a few discerning hub people to quietly set these things up but now word of mouth social events are taking place.

Mostly, folk who attend are a broader group socially, professionally and age range wise which is lovely, though we tend to a little older.

It is refreshingly free of group think except being anti-group think.

The younger generation don’t seem to mind former men in their spaces. I feel that women are being pushed out by biological men identifying as women.

I don’t think it’s so straightforward. If you are a same-sex attracted woman who wants to be with others today, your choices are spaces that include “former [or current] men” or attempting to find the (currently underground or perceived as fringe) events which are for natal women, and you need to know your own mind enough to understand why you may not want to give your time, money and headcount to the former. I’m 40 and still find it difficult.

I think “don’t seem to mind” can cover all sorts of feelings.

And yes, beyond that you also have the “queer, yay” lot and that young women who are same-sex attracted will often use words other than lesbian to describe themselves.

Anyway, I’m sorry this thread turned out to be yet another gotcha. It’s important, even if the OP’s intentions weren’t as they seemed.