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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A French lesbian perspective on sex-based boundaries and lesbian spaces

7 replies

TastySalt · Yesterday 14:43

Hi everyone,

I hope this is okay to post here. I thought this board might be the right place because the topic is sex-based boundaries, lesbian spaces, and the way girls are taught to understand consent.

I’m a French lesbian, and this subject is personal for me.
When I was younger, I was exposed to the idea that refusing male-bodied people who identified as women was narrow-minded, cruel, or bigoted. At the time, I did not have the confidence, language, or emotional strength to clearly say: “No, I am a lesbian. I am not attracted to male bodies. My boundaries are not hatred.”

That kind of message can be very damaging for young lesbians and girls in general. Especially girls who are kind, anxious, isolated, conflict-avoidant, or desperate to be accepted by a community.

If a girl is taught that her discomfort is prejudice, that her boundaries are exclusionary, and that saying no makes her a bad person, she becomes easier to pressure. That is what worries me.

A lot of the public discussion focuses on medicine, children, sports, prisons, and free speech. Those topics really, truly matter. But I think the lesbian angle is often treated as a side issue, when it actually reveals one of the clearest conflicts in the whole debate.

Female homosexuality is based on women being exclusively attracted to women. That should be simple. But increasingly, lesbian boundaries are reframed as suspicious: “genital preference,” “cotton ceiling,” exclusion, bigotry, lack of education, lack of openness.

The issue is that women, and especially young lesbians, are being asked to surrender sex-based language, spaces, and sexual boundaries in order to prove they are kind.

That creates a very specific form of misogyny: women’s refusal is treated as a problem to solve.
I made a video rant (through a personal storytime[ about this from a French lesbian perspective. It is in French with handmade English subtitles. The tone is caustic and vulgar at times, but the argument is serious.

Link:

Id be interested to know whether other women here have noticed this pattern, especially mothers of teenage girls, lesbians, or women who have seen similar dynamics in schools, online spaces, dating apps, or LGBT communities?

Cheers!!

A French lesbian perspective on sex-based boundaries and lesbian spaces
OP posts:
AllSlugsAreBastards · Yesterday 14:47

I have observed this and have some experience of it happening to my child. Have you found Osez le feminisme ! – On ne nait pas féministe, on le devient… yet - networks throughout France, and (last time I checked) GC.

Osez le feminisme ! – On ne nait pas féministe, on le devient…

https://osezlefeminisme.fr/

quixote9 · Yesterday 15:05

For any valid objection, it'll apply at least vaguely to men as well.

Are gay men pressured to have sex with women to prove how kind they are?

😂

(You can stop laughing now.) Of course they aren't. The very idea is ridiculous. The BS applies only to women, and that's all the proof you need that it is BS. Misogyny is a hell of a drug.

Grammarnut · Yesterday 15:10

This is worth the effort to view and gives a different perspective. My understanding of trans ideology is that it is both homophobic and misogynist, which means Lesbians get a double whammy of hatred.

MassiveWordSalad · Yesterday 15:19

Bienvenue à Mumsnet. This board often discusses the effect of transgender rights on lesbians, and plenty of lesbians post here. I’ll give your video a watch, I have no problem with caustic and vulgar 😁

LeftieRightsHoarder · Yesterday 15:22

When I was young, in the 1970s, it was not uncommon to be called a lesbian by a man you didn’t want to date. It was meant as an insult, or perhaps his true belief that he was irresistible. Fine by me though, as half my friends were lesbians.

Now the same sort of sleazy men are calling themselves lesbians!

Funny how times change. Still not in women’s favour, of course.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Yesterday 15:26

Welcome to the fight, I hope you video reaches a lot of people, especially young lesbians.

I think it would be fair to say the lesbian angle is pretty well covered in the UK's fightback against this batshittery. It been stated again and again how outrageous and homophobic the expectation that women who are only attracted to female bodies being forced to accept male bodied people as lesbians. One of the reasons why women's rights organisation are fighting to ensure that sex is not replaced by 'gender', is because same sex attracted orientation would cease to be if it were all about 'gender', and as mentioned that would make lesbians lose out twice.

The LGB Alliance was founded by Lesbians (and Gay men) who won't accept it, maybe they have a branch in France you could look up.

IwantToRetire · Yesterday 19:02

TastySalt · Yesterday 14:43

Hi everyone,

I hope this is okay to post here. I thought this board might be the right place because the topic is sex-based boundaries, lesbian spaces, and the way girls are taught to understand consent.

I’m a French lesbian, and this subject is personal for me.
When I was younger, I was exposed to the idea that refusing male-bodied people who identified as women was narrow-minded, cruel, or bigoted. At the time, I did not have the confidence, language, or emotional strength to clearly say: “No, I am a lesbian. I am not attracted to male bodies. My boundaries are not hatred.”

That kind of message can be very damaging for young lesbians and girls in general. Especially girls who are kind, anxious, isolated, conflict-avoidant, or desperate to be accepted by a community.

If a girl is taught that her discomfort is prejudice, that her boundaries are exclusionary, and that saying no makes her a bad person, she becomes easier to pressure. That is what worries me.

A lot of the public discussion focuses on medicine, children, sports, prisons, and free speech. Those topics really, truly matter. But I think the lesbian angle is often treated as a side issue, when it actually reveals one of the clearest conflicts in the whole debate.

Female homosexuality is based on women being exclusively attracted to women. That should be simple. But increasingly, lesbian boundaries are reframed as suspicious: “genital preference,” “cotton ceiling,” exclusion, bigotry, lack of education, lack of openness.

The issue is that women, and especially young lesbians, are being asked to surrender sex-based language, spaces, and sexual boundaries in order to prove they are kind.

That creates a very specific form of misogyny: women’s refusal is treated as a problem to solve.
I made a video rant (through a personal storytime[ about this from a French lesbian perspective. It is in French with handmade English subtitles. The tone is caustic and vulgar at times, but the argument is serious.

Link:

Id be interested to know whether other women here have noticed this pattern, especially mothers of teenage girls, lesbians, or women who have seen similar dynamics in schools, online spaces, dating apps, or LGBT communities?

Cheers!!

Thanks so much for posting this on mumsnet FWR.

And just brilliant that you have been able to stand up for your self, and made the video. Rants are fantastic.

We have had some threads on FWR about how women fighting for sex based rights in France are being treated really badly. https://reduxx.info/france-womens-rights-activist-convicted-of-insulting-transgender-women-by-discussing-their-male-attribute-fined-e4500/

But the impact on lesbians of trans ideology is really harsh. Not just the denial of biological reality but in demanding rights over their bodies.

Keep up the fight!

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